Pending 10 minute c4 and how the wink killed c4mas

[;)]

10 minute c4. We all know it, and understand the chicanery that's going on behind those 5 live wires; planting one in the spawn of inno motel gives you a way to bait innocents to kill a lot of people in no time at all. I love the concept for 10 minute c4, but it literally doesn't vibe with the rest of our warning based rulings as of right now. I don't use the word game throwing much, but some scenarios where an innocent is defusing a lengthy c4 could be considered that under a discerning eye.

Let me explain my thoughts with a tough question and some answers:

As innocent, why are you instantly defusing a 10 minute c4 without warning?

• "Imminent danger, I don't want my team to die!"
  • The round only consists of 6 minutes. The "danger sometime soon" threat isn't credible; you ARE the danger when you choose to defuse it.
• "I want to defuse it so the detective can get DNA/I picked up a DNA scanner and I want the DNA!"
  • Why aren't you coordinating with the detective and your teammates with a warning before you cut the wire? You could also coordinate with the detective so he buys a defuser, and keeps every homegirl safe.
• "The c4 just appeared, I'm attempting to defuse the c4 and botch it so I can kill the traitor with his bomb"
  • For every other explosive the innocent can get his grubby little fingers on (frag grenades, incens, jihads, etc), he is liable for any and all crossfire that occurs if a warning doesn't happen. You can argue this damage is being attributed to the traitor equipment, but iit's the innocent making the choice at the end of the day.

There really isn't a valid reason to be in completely control of a most probable imminent explosion and not give a valid warning for to your teammates. My ask with this thread is to consider adding "If you intend to defuse a c4 with over x:xx time remaining on it, you must warn."

If we are uncomfortable with shaking up the meta with rules, I have a few ideas that scale towards the more unhinged side of things that would at least making attempting defusals a little more rewarding/nuanced

• For the first 5-10 seconds of a lengthy C4, all wires will disarm it. Encourages more thoughtful hiding and also encourages fast defusals
• Successfully defusing a lengthy C4 provides the name of the player who planted it, accelerating the potential DNA risk to an immediate KOS if defused.

 

[cooldude42]

 

[Jassa]

I think if possible to code, it would make sense to tie it to karma system, as thats exactly what karma is ment to be (think if your actions are going to kill people on your side). On a failed defuse with "x" amount of time remaining, kill credit goes to defuser. Time remaining could be like 1-2 minutes so people who attempt to defuse low seconds left C4s do not get punished.
People love messing with C4s so mass RDM bans for no warning I think would be excessive but I think karma 1 hour ban is reasonable for the worst offenders.

 

[ParkRangerMoon]

-1 this kinda feels against the spirit of ttt itself and a lot of its social, chaotic aspects.

P.S. to get the maximum number of live wires a C4 only has to be armed for 4 minutes. Which is within our round timers and does pose a threat

 

[;)]

I think if possible to code, it would make sense to tie it to karma system, as thats exactly what karma is ment to be (think if your actions are going to kill people on your side). On a failed defuse with "x" amount of time remaining, kill credit goes to defuser. Time remaining could be like 1-2 minutes so people who attempt to defuse low seconds left C4s do not get punished.
People love messing with C4s so mass RDM bans for no warning I think would be excessive but I think karma 1 hour ban is reasonable for the worst offenders.

kill attributions would need to be changed I think? Would be a nice middle of the road change that allign with the spirit of our rulesets and the spirit of the game

-1 this kinda feels against the spirit of ttt itself and a lot of its social, chaotic aspects.

P.S. to get the maximum number of live wires a C4 only has to be armed for 4 minutes. Which is within our round timers and does pose a threat

If I decide to shoot or move an explosive barrel in a crowded area without warning as inno, I’m liable for any funny business that happens. I’d argue an explosive barrel has more imminent risk than a c4 with over 3 minutes remaining. Is it really that big of an ask to give a quick “clear out from spawn gang! I’m going to die an American hero trying to defuse this c4!” before going for the defusal?

 

[ParkRangerMoon]

If I decide to shoot or move an explosive barrel in a crowded area without warning as inno, I’m liable for any funny business that happens. I’d argue an explosive barrel has more imminent risk than a c4 with over 3 minutes remaining, is it really that big of an ask to give a quick “clear out from spawn gang! I’m going to die an American hero trying to defuse this c4!” before going for the defusal?

You’re not liable for moving the barrel.

And yes it is that big of an ask, I don’t want those dirty disgusting traitors to know that I’m on to them bc when I defuse that c4 I can get their DNA and kill them swiftly. I want to have the element of surprise. I am actually incentivized by the game to defuse the c4. Checkmate. Game, set, match.

 

[;)]

You’re not liable for moving the barrel.

And yes it is that big of an ask, I don’t want those dirty disgusting traitors to know that I’m on to them bc when I defuse that c4 I can get their DNA and kill them swiftly. I want to have the element of surprise. I am actually incentivized by the game to defuse the c4. Checkmate. Game, set, match.

You take liability there in one instance:

“3. If an explosive prop is shot in crossfire, the carrier will be slain for all the damage done as a result of the prop exploding.”

I don’t think a 1 in 6 chance in “silently grabbing dna” justifies the risk of killing others without warning. Given the amount of time on the clock, you could attempt to stall your silent game a little bit until people naturally clear out from the area if a warning is really that big of an ask, akin to how some people take the risk of not warning for stuff like frags to get the drop on people like @Shaddoll and rawdog the slays.

Even if you successfully defuse it as innocent, you still have to communicate “detective come here and get this dna!” which a traitor can easily piece together if they are paying attention to their hud.

 

[ParkRangerMoon]

Okay, do we impose karma bans and mass rdm bans on players new to the server who try to defuse the c4? Do we ban players new to gmod for doing the same? By limiting where it can be placed and adding an ease of defusal do we just render the c4 useless? Will we need to consider punishing players who place the c4 in out of reach areas such as T rooms as this can be unfair? If we’re worried about game throwing, if a t is sitting in the corner of the map calling out false KOSes do we need to start banning players that act on them? Do we need to issue toxic gameplay warnings to the T that called it? Do we ban people for triggering death stations? Do we need to make it a T act for players to pull out a gun?

I have an idea, I think we should remove everyone’s guns. Players shouldn’t be able to attack each other unless they’re a T. We will get rid of the detective bc it’s not needed. Innocents can complete “tasks” around the map to win. If they see an unided body they can report it and everyone will take a vote on who killed them…

The little bit of chaos is what makes TTT special. 10 minute C4s are part of the game for a reason. We don’t have to police all of the fun

 

[Virunas]

1) we could lower the max arm time to the max round time since its still max wires; this would put less blame on innocents for having a desire to defuse them

2) something I thought of that could help with identifying who placed the c4 but not make it too OP (like winks suggestion to straight up name the T) is if we made it so anyone can track the dna of a c4 with a long timer regardless of having a dna scanner or not. However this would require moving the m2 menu off of the scanner though and into a gui accessible regardless of role and equipment.

 

[;)]

Okay, do we impose karma bans and mass rdm bans on players new to the server who try to defuse the c4? Do we ban players new to gmod for doing the same?

We could add a warning to the HUD when attempting said defusal or some leniency guidelines for mod discretion to avoid mass RDM for obviously new players. We are really good at leniency here, the intent with our rdm/mass rdm punishments is to punish damage disrupting rounds for no good reason; we should be able to distinguish between intentional silly behavior and unintentional silly behavior here.

We could also force a little C menu warning to pop up for it when an innocent interacts with a lengthy c4, and have a delay built into the HUD of 4-5 seconds before a wire can be snipped. Would negate any warning actually needed and give those paying attention a fair chance to get away :^)

By limiting where it can be placed and adding an ease of defusal do we just render the c4 useless? Will we need to consider punishing players who place the c4 in out of reach areas such as T rooms as this can be unfair?

I'm really unsure how we stretched a suggestion about "innos needing to warn for defusal of an explosive they have full control over" to "punishing for how and where c4 is positioned by a traitor". Needless to say, I'm not advocating to punish traitors placing traitor equipment in the traitor room.

If we’re worried about game throwing, if a t is sitting in the corner of the map calling out false KOSes do we need to start banning players that act on them? Do we need to issue toxic gameplay warnings to the T that called it?

@helix would kill me if i even hinted at a suggestion like this. Toxic gameplay/gamethrowing only exists here if a silly innocent/detective keeps acting on those koses intentionally despite knowing they are being called by a traitor, which is often a hard thing to quantify in a chaotic round of TTT.

Do we ban people for triggering death stations?

We have actually! https://giantslair.com/threads/kawaiiarivers-ttt-ban-appeal.979/

Most scenarios, of course we wouldn't; it's traitor equipment meant to look like detective equipment that heals you. It's different for an innocent to interact with that thinking it's going to heal them, compared to an innocent interacting with a lengthy c4 that spells out in the hud you have a 5/6 chance of blowing things to hell and deciding to fuck with things anyways.

Do we need to make it a T act for players to pull out a gun?

Unless it's a traitor weapon, I don't see the need for this.

I really don't see this as policing fun to nearly the degree you are selling it as; we aren't killing c4 roulette or any other goofy 10 minute c4 things that happen here. All I'm asking is to either standardize a warning or make it more rewarding to sprint to the defusal, right now it's just silly and a little inconsiderate the risk you are taking on behalf of your teammates rushing for a lengthy defusal with no warning.

 

[Shaddoll]

I agree with this in concept, and while I'm notorious for not warning for grenades, yeah this is the type of thing that generally should require one. It's an abusable grey area in our rules that can be annoying to other Ts getting nailed by their buddy's C4 making it frustrating for all involved. Really this is something that should be written in the rules or make it so a C4's arm time cannot exceed the time left in the round if we don't trust people warning for this.

My question is: for C4s exceeding a certain arm time is it possible to track those kills in the logs and is it possible to credit the kills to the attempted defuser or is that WAY too much to try to work into the logs?

 

[ParkRangerMoon]

I agree with this in concept, and while I'm notorious for not warning for grenades, yeah this is the type of thing that generally should require one. It's an abusable grey area in our rules that can be annoying to other Ts getting nailed by their buddy's C4 making it frustrating for all involved. Really this is something that should be written in the rules or make it so a C4's arm time cannot exceed the time left in the round if we don't trust people warning for this.

My question is: for C4s exceeding a certain arm time is it possible to track those kills in the logs and is it possible to credit the kills to the attempted defuser or is that WAY too much to try to work into the logs?

I don’t think we should punish innocents for T shenanigans which is largely what this is about. Ts already need to warn for placing a c4 in an easily defusable place and are already punished for killing t buddies bc of it.