Pending Hiding DNA from Detective should be Traitorous

RobertClark

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Yesterday, there was a report that came in about a player killing another player for running an Identified body away from the Detective who was actively trying to scan it for DNA. After reading the rules, apparently this is not a Traitorous act but it should be. I feel like hiding a body, whether it's Identified or not, effectively stopping the Detective who is actively trying to get DNA off of it should be Traitorous.
 
How do you make it readily available at a glance for players to know if a body’s dna timer is still active? For a detective to know and kill for this effectively requires a pair of binoculars or him being close enough to grab dna as is
 
I don't think it's feasible to make it traitorous to hide/get rid of a body with dna on it specifically, for the reasons wink mentioned. The other side of this is that the damagelogs don't currently track the status of time remaining for dna on bodies. However, if we were to implement a rule change like this then I feel like that's probably something that could be changed in the logs.

The most practical way to accomplish this imo would be to make it traitorous to hide/get rid of bodies in general, ided or not. I'm not a fan of this route personally, as this would open up avenues of toxic gameplay where moving bodies at all could be considered traitorous.

You could maybe say something like "traitorous to get rid of a body that a detective is actively attempting to interact with" but I think that's also extremely vague and needlessly specific.

The situation you've described feels like it should be a justifiable kill, but unless someone can think of a way to implement this that doesn't open up a lot of potential for toxic gameplay or create extremely specific and complicated rules for when hiding/getting rid of bodies is traitorous, I think it's better to keep this rule as is.
 
I think one aspect that is being ignored here is that this already is against the rules in one shape of form. If proven to be intentional, hiding a body with DNA intentionally from a detective can be interpreted as game throwing and/or toxic gameplay. It's more of a complex situation- which is why these are discretionary punishments, and is different from what OP is asking here, but probably shouldn't be ignored in the discussion here.
 
I think one aspect that is being ignored here is that this already is against the rules in one shape of form. If proven to be intentional, hiding a body with DNA intentionally from a detective can be interpreted as game throwing and/or toxic gameplay. It's more of a complex situation- which is why these are discretionary punishments, and is different from what OP is asking here, but probably shouldn't be ignored in the discussion here.
That's a neat scope to think from there, rusty mind didn't go that way originally:

The only times I can argue (prob forgetting some important ones) it's not game throwing/toxic gameplay for an innocent to hide an innocent body with valid innocent dna are:

I killed someone in crossfire/tbaiting/other circumstance and don't want to the detective to kill innocent old me

A proven friend of me did something similiar and I don't want the detective to kill innocent old him

Temple's inno win condition


Definitely complex and fun.
 
Unless we were to add something that makes it visible to everyone from a distance that there is DNA on a body I don't see this being feasible, and even then -1.

I think it is more than reasonable to say it is suspicious and have that player have that on their back of not being able to really do much because they are being watched. I don't think every act that is suspicious should be a traitorous act.
 
Yesterday, there was a report that came in about a player killing another player for running an Identified body away from the Detective who was actively trying to scan it for DNA. After reading the rules, apparently this is not a Traitorous act but it should be. I feel like hiding a body, whether it's Identified or not, effectively stopping the Detective who is actively trying to get DNA off of it should be Traitorous.
TL;DR: I don't think it rises above the level of sus. You're hiding something, yes, but it's not clear whether it's serving the traitor objective (i.e. information disadvantage for innos) or the inno objective (e.g. preventing bad intel from causing inno on inno murder which can quickly spiral into a chain).

Generally speaking, what constitutes a traitorous act is that it reasonably proves you are a traitor, most likely furthers the traitor objective, or endangers you personally.
T-Baiting/Shooting someone makes them die. Generally, traitors are the ones who want to kill more people, so if you see someone open fire, it's reasonable to believe they're killing an inno.
Not identifying bodies gives traitors an information advantage.
Throwing dangerous grenades is similar to shooting someone.
Damaging a tester removes a method of innos gaining information, so it benefits the traitor objective.

Applying the same logic to identified bodies is hard. I don't think it's even a 50/50 of what you're most likely to be. I think innos are more likely to be carrying around an id'd body for any reason, than traitors.
And what if the body has no DNA? There's no way to tell without checking; even if you were called to the body it doesn't say "DNA expires in ..." - it very quickly becomes a question of whether moving a body at all is traitorous - and it certainly shouldn't be.
I've spent many a round carrying a body with DNA, pleading for the detectives to scan it while they yap about what they had for lunch in vc. I was actively pursuing an inno objective (identifying a traitor with information). That shouldn't be traitorous. I might have been trying to avoid DNA getting found on someone I killed, at which point the information I'm denying innos is serving the inno team.
Indeed, I think the vast majority of times, it's an inno who will pick up an identified body. Either to bring DNA to a detective or to protect themselves from being DNA-killed - both serving an inno objective. Changing the rule could open up for some super aggressive, toxic kills.
For instance where someone picks up a body to bring DNA to a detective and runs off, not knowing that a dete is behind them. A detective that then shoots them for running away with the body. That would feel awful.

A traitor might do this, but a traitor doing this leaves themselves vulnerable (reduced vision, magneto out instead of weapon out), is limited to only hiding one DNA (if they kill someone else, they can't carry around both), and are broadly speaking better off leaving the body out as a trap than moving it around to conceal DNA.
 
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