Pending Remove all RDM rules

[RhazhBash]

There's been talk before about having a server with no rules on RDM and a stricter karma ban threshold, the way TTT was intended to be played. Instead of monitoring every kill to decide if it's valid, you get karma bans before hitting 600 and you have to be careful who you kill. You'll still have an incentive to not kill random people because of karma bans, but you'll have more freedom to kill people who act suspicious.

Could be tested on a one time event server or as a special event on the main server to see how people like it and adjust the karma threshold/karma ban length to fit the gameplay.

 

[;)]

Interested in this, as long map pool is curated to not have maps with silly that can’t be used to bypass the karma system (looking at you bikini bottom).

An issue I can see arising is players getting confused by sets of server rules if we go the event route.

 

[wubby]

I would like to apologize for my latest statement. I, like many others, are tired of clickbait headlines, and as such assumed this fit right into those. I reacted before reading further into it. I have personally apologized to Mr Rhazh, and promised I will never do such things again.

Now reading past the headlines, I really don’t think it would be a favorable server. I doubt there would be enough people playing it, and just getting killed instantly by people who will no care if they get karma banned or not. I do like a one time event to test it out, but I doubt people will favor it enough to play it and keep it populated.

 

[Spooktorious]

Without leaking... This may or may not already be being considered as an option for a second server

 

[Virunas]

(looking at you bikini bottom).

I have a version that is less lenient on indirect kills and i could make it even stricter to karma

 

[Exeat]

I don't know about this, just seems like it would cause a lot of problems, most I would want to see is a separate server but even then I don't see it ending well

Rules make it fun, the fact that an innocent can't just kill whoever they want because sus or just no reason at all
Oops sorry killed detective because they had a t weapon

 

[CelDamage]

its intriguing, but how are things like tbaiting dealt with? I feel like the issue that would arise would be instead of RDMers (which would still exist), youd now have trolls using strict karma rules in order to get regulars banned when there arent staff on

 

[anna]

There are always going to be people that troll and do their best to skirt around the rules (or lack there of) and those people will always exist regardless. Would be super cool to have this do a trial day or two where we can see how the population reacts etc etc.

While I do agree that rules make it fun, having the threat of karma would also be fun (might even teach a few people to be less trigger happy in general too)

 

[8BitF0x]

I love RDM.

 

[;)]

its intriguing, but how are things like tbaiting dealt with? I feel like the issue that would arise would be instead of RDMers (which would still exist), youd now have trolls using strict karma rules in order to get regulars banned when there arent staff on

I think given enough time it’ll evolve with the karma only enforcement in mind… keep in mind a lot of the (more justifiable) t baiting cases are in scenarios where innocents are getting whittled down. In the Karma reality I can kill because the delayer refuses to be tested, you don’t respond to my live check, i clearly saw you in a buy menu. Why would I t bait when I can just use my mega mind?

The more interesting thing that might need a solution with this is koses. You could argue that fuck it whoever decides to act on a kos is losing his karma/life… but when a detective is playing the “I kos everyone” game he doesn’t risk anything

 

[rog the dog]

Yeah this could be a very fun way to play TTT, and if its a 2nd server it would also be funny for someone to join and Mass RDM thinking they joined the right server to do it on.

I'm on board. Make the karma like 700 tho

 

[My Dime Is Up]

There's been talk before about having a server with no rules on RDM and a stricter karma ban threshold, the way TTT was intended to be played. Instead of monitoring every kill to decide if it's valid, you get karma bans before hitting 600 and you have to be careful who you kill. You'll still have an incentive to not kill random people because of karma bans, but you'll have more freedom to kill people who act suspicious.

Could be tested on a one time event server or as a special event on the main server to see how people like it and adjust the karma threshold/karma ban length to fit the gameplay.

I have proposed running a test server to see how this would play out. The creator of TTT, Bad King Urgrain, stated in a post here.

"This has always been a challenge in designing the game because on one hand I want to encourage chaos, because it can be funny as hell. At the same time, if a random person just shoots everyone they see every round it stops being fun very quickly. I’ve tried to strike a balance there with the Karma system to let the game do some moderation of its own, but most public servers have very strict rules going on that I don’t particularly like. It cuts off some interesting gameplay if you just have an admin slay everyone who shoots the wrong person. At the same time, servers have to deal with trolls and bad players. It’s a problem I have not been able to solve [...]"

I think it would be interesting to spin up a separate server, with a lot of the rules stripped (GBA, no killing on sus, etc.) and seeing how it plays out and getting feedback from players about the gameplay experience. In TTT, you ARE supposed to kill based off of suspicion. Now does that mean we have to draw a line somewhere where there is "reasonable suspicion"? Maybe just killing someone and saying "you were sus" is still a slay but if a player died since a reasonable amount of time and has the same weapon, maybe allow that. People who t-bait are allowed, thats what adds to the "chaos" that TTT was designed with. If people are constantly t-baiting however and runing the karma of others, do we then ban for toxic gameplay? This is where the problem starts to come from. Then again, the karma system is meant to handle these type of trigger-happy players. Do we simply only slay for obvious RDM? DarkRP has the same problem with things like NLR and FailRP. FPtje has said DarkRP is meant to be messed around with, not super serious. At one point he had a message print in the console of every player who joined with a rant expressing his frustration with how DarkRP is hyper-moderated with admin sits and server MOTDs with a forum thread with multi-post list of rules. Like Bad King Urgrain stated, I think there needs to be a healthy balance since as we know, GMod can bring some great players but also some bad apples.

I imagine a lot of the backlash comes from the fact that if you are picked as a Traitor, these type of suspicion-based kills is going to bring about a bad day. However I propose a counterpoint, which is that we all feel this way because we've only played TTT like this. It also comes from a single-point perspective, where we feel that if the rules are reduced, that it will only affect us. However with a rule revision, it will affect the entire gameplay and feel of the server and not single a single person out. If everyone is playing a more relaxed enviorment rather than constantly worrying if they can kill based on GBA, no single person will feel targetted and maybe everyone would adjust to this new gameplay style.

This is the way TTT was created, and it is interesting to think about how most servers have made TTT (as well as other gamemodes like DarkRP) into this super-serious, rule based, X Y Z gameplay style. Our community is really great, but playing TTT with a list of rules isn't the same as coming home, hopping on Battlefield/Fortnite/CoD and being able to shoot, kill, and play the game without a laundry-list of rules. Thats why they are games people like to play when they get home; they're simple and to the point, no fear of punishment based on your play style.

I really would like to run this experiment. If the time ever comes, I think it would be great to revise rules based off what we see.

 

[RODSIN]

I consider that this would be very interesting to have for a second server or as a prank for a day (as a test for the second server, if so). I do believe that would work, and I would put the karma to be lower of 400 to be karma banned. Why? Well, in the server right now, as I did yesterday (9-11pm GMT +1), around 643 its -50% damage, so just imagine having a server, where 9 people have that, others have -79% and the rest are fine! That'd be so cool for an experiment which reminds me to when I played with my bros, runnin a server just to see how ttt worked, and doing the absolute stupid things ever XD. So yeah, I do support this

 

[Bad Cat]

Honestly, what attracted me to SGM to begin with was how rigid and explicit the rule structure was. The problem is how toxic this made everything. The more heavily laws are enforced, the more glaring the weaknesses and loopholes are.

Looser rules means we have to have more subjective and looser moderation too. I think the only way a server like this will truly work is if we have appropriately-minded mods who are allowed to basically temp-ban off of bad vibes, and I mean this completely unironically. Such a server needs to be as free-form as possible, as lawless as possible, but it cannot be unregulated. The actual gameplay penalties should be super short, or very detrimental to gameplay (Such as Karma not resetting on map-change, but only resulting in an automatic ban at an absurdly low number).

 

[RODSIN]

Honestly, what attracted me to SGM to begin with was how rigid and explicit the rule structure was. The problem is how toxic this made everything. The more heavily laws are enforced, the more glaring the weaknesses and loopholes are.

Looser rules means we have to have more subjective and looser moderation too. I think the only way a server like this will truly work is if we have appropriately-minded mods who are allowed to basically temp-ban off of bad vibes, and I mean this completely unironically. Such a server needs to be as free-form as possible, as lawless as possible, but it cannot be unregulated. The actual gameplay penalties should be super short, or very detrimental to gameplay (Such as Karma not resetting on map-change, but only resulting in an automatic ban at an absurdly low number).

From my point of view and my understanding from yours is that we'd need moderation not for rdm's indeed, rather toxicity and people mantaining armony. This idea, the more I think about it kinda reminds me to 2b2t, the problem is that, there you can say literally anything, nevertheless here you mustn't, therefore, if it happens there should be a rather strong but few rules to mantain as previously said "the armony".

 

[;)]

Forgive me if this point has been brought up, but with the amount of staff we have at the moment and how much time no (simple, basic) rdm reports should free up, there might be a place to set the expectation on them to help influence the direction of the ship every so often to keep the toxicity from bubbling up.

Below is a pair of the bigger problems and possible solutions (probably tricky to implement tbh):

Every time wink is a Detective, he calls koses over the smallest thing, causing mass karma loss with no repercussions (sus on activating t trap, didn’t follow my orders to test, didn’t kiss the ring and worship the ground by blue boots walk on): Smart players may learn to start tuning me out so they don’t lose karma, but a ban/force avoid player from detective for X rounds command could easily put my blue ass six feet under ground.

wink is excessively t baiting and causing chaos in a way that is leading to karma bans of other players: Equipping mods with a protocol on such actions (whether it’s consider game throwing or just excessive dickheadery) to warn/remove wink in this scenario is needed.

People will debate me on this, but if wink was intentionally stirring the karma pot to get people banned, it might be fair to give mods a way to help bump people’s karma up a little bit. Another helpful measure might be making it so the karma ban takes place after a round below the threshold, so the mods have some time to react to these scenarios before a player gets booted unfairly.

I expect issues like the problems stated above to be relatively rare, and the staff team we have now should be able to implement the vibes we need to have some fun.

 

[RODSIN]

Forgive me if this point has been brought up, but with the amount of staff we have at the moment and how much time no (simple, basic) rdm reports should free up, there might be a place to set the expectation on them to help influence the direction of the ship every so often to keep the toxicity from bubbling up.

Below is a pair of the bigger problems and possible solutions (probably tricky to implement tbh):

Every time wink is a Detective, he calls koses over the smallest thing, causing mass karma loss with no repercussions (sus on activating t trap, didn’t follow my orders to test, didn’t kiss the ring and worship the ground by blue boots walk on): Smart players may learn to start tuning me out so they don’t lose karma, but a ban/force avoid player from detective for X rounds command could easily put my blue ass six feet under ground.

wink is excessively t baiting and causing chaos in a way that is leading to karma bans of other players: Equipping mods with a protocol on such actions (whether it’s consider game throwing or just excessive dickheadery) to warn/remove wink in this scenario is needed.

People will debate me on this, but if wink was intentionally stirring the karma pot to get people banned, it might be fair to give mods a way to help bump people’s karma up a little bit. Another helpful measure might be making it so the karma ban takes place after a round below the threshold, so the mods have some time to react to these scenarios before a player gets booted unfairly.

I expect issues like the problems stated above to be relatively rare, and the staff team we have now should be able to implement the vibes we need to have some fun.

wink doesnt cause that. At least as far as I have played with. Yes, people troll, yes some people shoot randomly but not because of evilness rather being goofy, any staff tells them to stop and they do at ease. I do not consider from my experience that wink has done anything as such, or what I've said before; t baiting can be done by anyone and Its the player whom decides what to choose and what not to choose, so blaming on a player for rules already existence is not (in my opinion) right and therefore, I totally disagree.

 

[SquidgyBoat]

I imagine a lot of the backlash comes from the fact that if you are picked as a Traitor, these type of suspicion-based kills is going to bring about a bad day. However I propose a counterpoint, which is that we all feel this way because we've only played TTT like this. It also comes from a single-point perspective, where we feel that if the rules are reduced, that it will only affect us. However with a rule revision, it will affect the entire gameplay and feel of the server and not single a single person out. If everyone is playing a more relaxed enviorment rather than constantly worrying if they can kill based on GBA, no single person will feel targetted and maybe everyone would adjust to this new gameplay style.

This is the way TTT was created, and it is interesting to think about how most servers have made TTT (as well as other gamemodes like DarkRP) into this super-serious, rule based, X Y Z gameplay style. Our community is really great, but playing TTT with a list of rules isn't the same as coming home, hopping on Battlefield/Fortnite/CoD and being able to shoot, kill, and play the game without a laundry-list of rules. Thats why they are games people like to play when they get home; they're simple and to the point, no fear of punishment based on your play style.

I've played TTT since about 2009, it's been interesting seeing how most servers build their rules and moderation differently. Many large early servers had this ruleset we are discussing, with stronger karma autoban and wild west moderation. In the early days before most of the mod menus and tools that we have now, it was all console based. Damage logs and players answers were all you had to go on. RDMers were slayed midround, next round, or straight up banned for X number of minutes in console, and probably over half of RDMs went by.

More and more servers over the years started up with heavier rulesets and restrictions on killing off of suspicion, along with strict guidelines of how to moderate and investigate RDM claims. Mods basically got put on trial for little petty shit all the time. Still happens to an extent, but nowhere near to the same degree. I'm glad we're taking a more relaxed approach here, and I'm also very curious how this kind of server would work nowadays. It's mainly veterans left, not kids and randoms. It would work better than when we used to play that way imo. +1

 

[DaddyNexxus]

Forgive me if this point has been brought up, but with the amount of staff we have at the moment and how much time no (simple, basic) rdm reports should free up, there might be a place to set the expectation on them to help influence the direction of the ship every so often to keep the toxicity from bubbling up.

Below is a pair of the bigger problems and possible solutions (probably tricky to implement tbh):

Every time wink is a Detective, he calls koses over the smallest thing, causing mass karma loss with no repercussions (sus on activating t trap, didn’t follow my orders to test, didn’t kiss the ring and worship the ground by blue boots walk on): Smart players may learn to start tuning me out so they don’t lose karma, but a ban/force avoid player from detective for X rounds command could easily put my blue ass six feet under ground.

wink is excessively t baiting and causing chaos in a way that is leading to karma bans of other players: Equipping mods with a protocol on such actions (whether it’s consider game throwing or just excessive dickheadery) to warn/remove wink in this scenario is needed.

People will debate me on this, but if wink was intentionally stirring the karma pot to get people banned, it might be fair to give mods a way to help bump people’s karma up a little bit. Another helpful measure might be making it so the karma ban takes place after a round below the threshold, so the mods have some time to react to these scenarios before a player gets booted unfairly.

I expect issues like the problems stated above to be relatively rare, and the staff team we have now should be able to implement the vibes we need to have some fun.

Wink also stole my wife and kicked my dog, I feel this post.