The Dumbest Death of a Server

CelDamage

CelDamage

Teto Territory Terrorist
Legendary
I didn't want to write this, but honestly I am so sick and tired of watching all my friends hard efforts go to waste simply because the community has become completely exhausted all due to the lack of effort from one man. As time goes on, it becomes increasingly obvious until this elephant is addressed directly, and bluntly, the efforts of my friends trying to rebuild will only continue to be futile, although at this point I fear nothing short of him leaving would save this community.

In all my years playing gmod, seeing communities thrive and communities die. I have never seen one die over something so absolutely stupid. I am speaking directly to you Jabba because your actions, as well as your inactions have to be some of the braindead things I have ever witnessed in a community "leader." You burn through all the people trying to help you all for your pride and ego. You claim you don't want to be "performative" by doing the simplest of things that any good leader should have the brain cells to know are required in situations like humility, transparency and basic communication. It took this amount of people leaving you to surrender an ounce of control to the Lead Admins and devs who have deserved that control this entire time. You trust nobody... and its no wonder why, people will so easily backstab you because you are fucking pathetic. Delete this if you may, it wont go away. I am saying what everyone is thinking. Many of us left because we were tired of it all, but had hopes that with faces finally moving up and getting the recognition they long deserved that things could turn around. Maybe you would be humbled and the new guard could beat you into submission, sadly we were dead wrong. Every time we would check in, it would be a new roadblock, you never got humbled, you never learned any lesson and you clearly think this is all some sort of game and all the time and effort that people still devote to trying to fix things is meaningless.

If you are content in watching all that everyone else has worked on burn down, that's fine, but this is my warning to you... This community is not yours, it's ours. If you want the community to burn with you, they wont. The community will live on with or without you. You will lose everything and burn alone.
 
CelDamage said:
I didn't want to write this, but honestly I am so sick and tired of watching all my friends hard efforts go to waste simply because the community has become completely exhausted all due to the lack of effort from one man. As time goes on, it becomes increasingly obvious until this elephant is addressed directly, and bluntly, the efforts of my friends trying to rebuild will only continue to be futile, although at this point I fear nothing short of him leaving would save this community.

In all my years playing gmod, seeing communities thrive and communities die. I have never seen one die over something so absolutely stupid. I am speaking directly to you Jabba because your actions, as well as your inactions have to be some of the braindead things I have ever witnessed in a community "leader." You burn through all the people trying to help you all for your pride and ego. You claim you don't want to be "performative" by doing the simplest of things that any good leader should have the brain cells to know are required in situations like humility, transparency and basic communication. It took this amount of people leaving you to surrender an ounce of control to the Lead Admins and devs who have deserved that control this entire time. You trust nobody... and its no wonder why, people will so easily backstab you because you are fucking pathetic. Delete this if you may, it wont go away. I am saying what everyone is thinking. Many of us left because we were tired of it all, but had hopes that with faces finally moving up and getting the recognition they long deserved that things could turn around. Maybe you would be humbled and the new guard could beat you into submission, sadly we were dead wrong. Every time we would check in, it would be a new roadblock, you never got humbled, you never learned any lesson and you clearly think this is all some sort of game and all the time and effort that people still devote to trying to fix things is meaningless.

If you are content in watching all that everyone else has worked on burn down, that's fine, but this is my warning to you... This community is not yours, it's ours. If you want the community to burn with you, they wont. The community will live on with or without you. You will lose everything and burn alone.
Click to expand...

I know it seems like beating the dead horse to some, and I'm sorry that's the really dismissive first response you got for this- but I also know that you've been pretty torn up about this for a bit. It's kind of a bummer to see the work and contributions of so many go this route, but I'm glad you able to get this out, and I hope there's some realization that it's another message from someone who has felt the frustration for seeing a community going in a way that they're not happy, and feels like they haven't received appreciation for the work and dedication that they've put in. Beating the dead horse or not, I hope you're doing well, Cel.
 
Agennon has been cleary trying to make this situation be fixed on its own.Thats not happening.
I’ve been so fucking stressed because of this situation and seeing all of the staff resign, or seeing pops low, and I believe that Jabba resigning to a lead position, and making a group effort as leader, would be helpful. (Im probably wrong). I’m not 100% sure how this community even functions in the first place.
Cel said this as well but it feels like every time it’s gonna get better, Agennon does something, or most importantly, doesn’t do something, which makes it worse, and that shouldn’t be the case
I still have so so so much hope in this community and that we can get past this, and I know a lot of you do too.
Saying shit like “it’s the death of the server” is gonn make it worse. It’s gonna give people the pessimistic thought that everything is gonna go to shit and we will never fix this.
So, @Agennon please. . Do something. Fix the mess that you started and refuse to fix.

Stay positive

This is not the end. Don’t let anyone tell you it is.

-cooldude
 
helix said:
I know it seems like beating the dead horse to some, and I'm sorry that's the really dismissive first response you got for this- but I also know that you've been pretty torn up about this for a bit. It's kind of a bummer to see the work and contributions of so many go this route, but I'm glad you able to get this out, and I hope there's some realization that it's another message from someone who has felt the frustration for seeing a community going in a way that they're not happy, and feels like they haven't received appreciation for the work and dedication that they've put in. Beating the dead horse or not, I hope you're doing well, Cel.
Click to expand...
The funny thing is that it is a dead horse, but it's also an elephant in the room at the same time. So we are beating on the dead elephant in the room because it's corpse is really starting to stink and make it hard for people to enjoy their time here or ever truly move on
 
Agennon said:
I don't have anything for you right now. I do not change performatively. There will be neither bread nor circus.

You want change, I'm doing the work. You want some publicity piece, it isn't coming.

I don't fear the chrysalis. It's been good to me. I'll return to it every time I need to.
Click to expand...
 
That's a coward's response by him and I'm tired of pretending it's not. If you guys want to pretend all is well while the owner goes on some journey of enlightenment while the entire community is left in the dark that's a problem. You guys enable him by thinking it's okay to move on like this.

Y'all have learned nothing because the same exact thing is happening right now that happened when all this started; decisions are made behind closed doors while the entire community is left in the dark for way too long because you guys drag your feet forever saying "big things are coming." Do you guys not recognize by now that it's more damaging to lead the community on with that kinda crap than to just not say anything at all? I care about you guys but holy shit if you guys aren't the slowest decision makers on the planet. I have checked in many times to see if admins are finally in the loop after all that's happened, and the responses I got were no. Advisors chat is apparently dead presumably because you guys don't trust them anymore so I'm left to assume that everything is still being held behind the closed door exclusive friend club of the War Room (unless that too is dead, in which case I bring into question these "big things" you guys kept hyping.

I want to force conversation here because I think it's a cultural problem with this community's administration style from the very beginning that it is way too hierarchal and privatized. Not only was this system a detriment to community growth back then, it is now a detriment to any form of community rebuilding.
 
rog the dog said:
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Love ya rog, but with all due respect, I think this entirely misses the points that I think Cel is making here. This also applies to what Noct posted.

Things are very clearly still not where they were pre-drama. The TTT server is pretty much completely dead aside from the occasional repop every so often. Minecraft still hasn't fully gotten off the ground. We've lost a lot of people over, to be frank, stupidity and drama that, with most of us being in our late teens and 20s, you'd think we'd be able to work through. We aren't in high school anymore.

I agree that this stifling still stems from a seemingly lack of change. There might be a lot of discussions going on behind closed doors in staff and leadership channels, but to us in the public, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, that we haven't seen much of actual quantitative evidence of actionable change. I feel personally a bit frustrated by this. I'm glad Leads feel like they have a bit more autonomy, but it's become very evident that more is necessary. Hence, we're still stuck in this complete downward spiral.

This is the part I could not agree with Cel more on. We hear things about how changes are coming - my big question is, when? It's been over a month since everything happened. The bureaucratic process that has been talked about time and time again still feels like it's well in effect - and it's going to kill this community if that doesn't change.
 
Random Props said:
This also applies to what Noct posted.
Click to expand...
I didn't post it to make a point. It's just the most recent response from Agennon that fits the topic of this thread and I'm doubtful there will be a new/different one given here so just reposting for those that missed it in the last thread
 
Random Props said:
Love ya rog, but with all due respect, I think this entirely misses the points that I think Cel is making here. This also applies to what Noct posted.

Things are very clearly still not where they were pre-drama. The TTT server is pretty much completely dead aside from the occasional repop every so often. Minecraft still hasn't fully gotten off the ground. We've lost a lot of people over, to be frank, stupidity and drama that, with most of us being in our late teens and 20s, you'd think we'd be able to work through. We aren't in high school anymore.

I agree that this stifling still stems from a seemingly lack of change. There might be a lot of discussions going on behind closed doors in staff and leadership channels, but to us in the public, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, that we haven't seen much of actual quantitative evidence of actionable change. I feel personally a bit frustrated by this. I'm glad Leads feel like they have a bit more autonomy, but it's become very evident that more is necessary. Hence, we're still stuck in this complete downward spiral.

This is the part I could not agree with Cel more on. We hear things about how changes are coming - my big question is, when? It's been over a month since everything happened. The bureaucratic process that has been talked about time and time again still feels like it's well in effect - and it's going to kill this community if that doesn't change.
Click to expand...
And I feel I should emphasize that I don't blame anybody for the bureaucratic slowdown process because it's presumably how it's been since the beginning, so it only makes sense that in times when the community was thriving the assumption is that nothing needs to be changed, when in reality I think if this kinda stuff was looked at during our peak, it could've boosted the community far beyond what we ever reached. We all just worked around the scuffed systems because it's what we had to work with and challenging it wouldve been a collosal task to get everyone on the same page
 
I don't really have much to contribute to this post specifically. But there's something - a sentiment - I would like to reply to:
Random Props said:
that we haven't seen much of actual quantitative evidence of actionable change.
Click to expand...
Quantitative evidence, exhibit A:
Community polls and proposals, spearheaded by wink to gather feedback on specific changes from the community and open it to a public conversation instead of having it be decided internally in the staff team

Community Polls & Proposals

giantslair.com giantslair.com

Quantitative evidence, exhibit B:
anna (and I) asking for feedback on what the community wants out of the discord staff team, to help guide our efforts and make sure we were getting things right, addressing blind spots, and avoiding sniffing our own farts.
anna

Thread 'Discord Staff Team Discussion'

If it hasn't been made clear we need members of the community to not only feel like their opinions are heard and matter but offer an avenue to do so. While I am not prefect at this, I think this is a wonderful chance for everyone to share their opinions, hopes, dreams and wants with regards to our Discord Staff team.

Please share your opinions/suggestions below! I will be reading them all and while I cant promose they will be all acted on, I can promise they will be considered and heard. I have purposefully not provided my thoughts as I would like to not alter/discourage responses!
  • Friendly
  • Like

Quantitative evidence, exhibit C:
Arguably leaking, but another thing I was working on with anna while I was discord admin, is a public thread to cement both the guidelines for staff in how to approach situations in moderating discord in particular, and in kind what our expectations are from community members. Not some arbitrary "good faith" demand that just becomes an excuse to dismiss concerns raised. Instead, what we wanted to do is give out an open invitation to talk to us - with the promise that we'll actually listen. One example being exhibit B above. And while this was centered around Discord, it is/was our hope to let the discord moderation standards be the first blow to the toxic culture we've managed to cultivate on a broader community level.
This is only an excerpt and this is not the finalized version. It was still being worked on when I resigned so it might end up being quite different to what I post here.

But since the people long for actual quantitative evidence of action/change/actionable change, here's an excerpt featuring what I dubbed the cornerstones of (Discord) moderation.
It had colours and neat headings and all that funky layout work, but I can't edit the post to grab the bbcode for it, so you're getting it raw. Pretend it's neatly stylized.
CORNERSTONES OF OUR DISCORD MODERATION
ACCOUNTABILITY - COMMUNICATION - ENFORCEMENT

ACCOUNTABILITY
Because moderating a social space can be tricky, we might make mistakes. Our goal is always to keep it a fun and relaxed space. But sometimes we miss the mark.
Our decisions should always hold up under scrutiny. As such, you are welcome to question our decisions or suggest a different course of action.
We will listen.

In return, please speak plainly with us. We're open to changing or reversing a decision when we get it wrong. It's necessary that you communicate it in a good way. We'll treat you with respect and ask that you do the same to us. Neither vague nor aggressive comments are part of a good dialogue.

COMMUNICATION
This is our alpha and omega. When we bring up communication for moderation, what we mean is that we will always communicate clearly and earnestly with you when moderating. Staff will strive to de-escalate a situation before giving out official warnings. With only a few key exceptions, you will be given an official warning before rules are enforced. You will be told why you were warned, and how to avoid further action. And if you were muted, timed out, etc., we will similarly clarify the punishment given and address any concerns you might have.

ENFORCEMENT
The third and final cornerstone of our moderation is enforcement of the rules. Sometimes we need to apply punishments. When doing so, we will always strive to be fair. Similar punishments for similar offenses. And the same standards apply whether you're newly arrived or a long time member, friend or stranger, staff or regular. Enforcement is always done with the core goal of keeping the space fun and relaxed. If things are fun and relaxed, staff will almost never get involved. With the notable exception of breaking non-negotiable rules for content, such as the use of slurs or other explicit and hateful content.
Click to expand...

Things ARE happening. Things ARE moving. Not all the stuff currently in the works is ready to be pushed public, partly because the ones making it are anxious to get it as damned close to right as possible. Partly because the avenues that have been given, only saw minimal input. Which is to be expected, given the state of things - nevertheless, it makes it difficult to listen when people stop speaking.
But I can with great confidence say that there's also an awareness of and a desire among leadership and admins to push more conversations down, closer to the community. They're still learning how to do this and the best ways to do this. Where it's impactful and where it's a waste of time. How to set it up to make the community's voice impactful. In some ways, the community has lost so much faith and excitement that the team isn't just starting to do this from scratch, we're starting from minus. There's a lot of damaged trust, a lot of people just going through the motions but no longer having fun. The absolute best thing you - anyone - can do right now, is to nibble when things start dropping. Give it the benefit of doubt. Play along even if you don't think it'll be great. Because there are good, kind, amazing people that have been and are working as hard as they can to make good things happen for this community.

Right or wrong, continuous posts like these about Jabba won't hit Jabba. He's made it very clear where he stands. And while I personally have quite a few disagreements with the leadership style being adopted by Jabba and I think that it sucks, I also recognize where energy is better spent. Posts like these are - in effect - just hurting the people that give a damn and have been doing their best to right the ship and make the lair fun to hang around. Hate Jabba all you want if that's what feels good for you. But one thing that was right in the OP is this: This community is ours.
No one person can save or destroy it, not Jabba, not any of the banned people, not any of the unbanned people. We together decide what this community should be. What it will become. So work together to make it a good one <3
 
Siddo said:
I don't really have much to contribute to this post specifically. But there's something - a sentiment - I would like to reply to:

Quantitative evidence, exhibit A:
Community polls and proposals, spearheaded by wink to gather feedback on specific changes from the community and open it to a public conversation instead of having it be decided internally in the staff team

Community Polls & Proposals

giantslair.com giantslair.com

Quantitative evidence, exhibit B:
anna (and I) asking for feedback on what the community wants out of the discord staff team, to help guide our efforts and make sure we were getting things right, addressing blind spots, and avoiding sniffing our own farts.
anna

Thread 'Discord Staff Team Discussion'

If it hasn't been made clear we need members of the community to not only feel like their opinions are heard and matter but offer an avenue to do so. While I am not prefect at this, I think this is a wonderful chance for everyone to share their opinions, hopes, dreams and wants with regards to our Discord Staff team.

Please share your opinions/suggestions below! I will be reading them all and while I cant promose they will be all acted on, I can promise they will be considered and heard. I have purposefully not provided my thoughts as I would like to not alter/discourage responses!
  • Friendly
  • Like

Quantitative evidence, exhibit C:
Arguably leaking, but another thing I was working on with anna while I was discord admin, is a public thread to cement both the guidelines for staff in how to approach situations in moderating discord in particular, and in kind what our expectations are from community members. Not some arbitrary "good faith" demand that just becomes an excuse to dismiss concerns raised. Instead, what we wanted to do is give out an open invitation to talk to us - with the promise that we'll actually listen. One example being exhibit B above. And while this was centered around Discord, it is/was our hope to let the discord moderation standards be the first blow to the toxic culture we've managed to cultivate on a broader community level.
This is only an excerpt and this is not the finalized version. It was still being worked on when I resigned so it might end up being quite different to what I post here.

But since the people long for actual quantitative evidence of action/change/actionable change, here's an excerpt featuring what I dubbed the cornerstones of (Discord) moderation.
It had colours and neat headings and all that funky layout work, but I can't edit the post to grab the bbcode for it, so you're getting it raw. Pretend it's neatly stylized.


Things ARE happening. Things ARE moving. Not all the stuff currently in the works is ready to be pushed public, partly because the ones making it are anxious to get it as damned close to right as possible. Partly because the avenues that have been given, only saw minimal input. Which is to be expected, given the state of things - nevertheless, it makes it difficult to listen when people stop speaking.
But I can with great confidence say that there's also an awareness of and a desire among leadership and admins to push more conversations down, closer to the community. They're still learning how to do this and the best ways to do this. Where it's impactful and where it's a waste of time. How to set it up to make the community's voice impactful. In some ways, the community has lost so much faith and excitement that the team isn't just starting to do this from scratch, we're starting from minus. There's a lot of damaged trust, a lot of people just going through the motions but no longer having fun. The absolute best thing you - anyone - can do right now, is to nibble when things start dropping. Give it the benefit of doubt. Play along even if you don't think it'll be great. Because there are good, kind, amazing people that have been and are working as hard as they can to make good things happen for this community.

Right or wrong, continuous posts like these about Jabba won't hit Jabba. He's made it very clear where he stands. And while I personally have quite a few disagreements with the leadership style being adopted by Jabba and I think that it sucks, I also recognize where energy is better spent. Posts like these are - in effect - just hurting the people that give a damn and have been doing their best to right the ship and make the lair fun to hang around. Hate Jabba all you want if that's what feels good for you. But one thing that was right in the OP is this: This community is ours.
No one person can save or destroy it, not Jabba, not any of the banned people, not any of the unbanned people. We together decide what this community should be. What it will become. So work together to make it a good one <3
Click to expand...
Firstly, thank you for posting this, because it is legitimately insightful into what is going on right now.

I want to preface my reply by saying that I did not intend for my reply here to elicit any hostility towards anyone - I have a collaborative mindset, and I want to work to help make this community succeed again. I think people are right to be frustrated with how everything has unfolded, and I do think there's a right to be upset with the speed in which changes are happening. I want to help however I can to enact changes as efficiently as possible. We are in such a deep hole, and I recognize the efforts being put in to try and dig ourselves out of it, and I respect Leadership a lot for continuing to work at it.

I think the evidence you have shown is a great start for those respective areas. I genuinely did not know exhibit A existed; that's a great initiative, and I’d love to see that used more. But I think exhibit C is by far the most important one because it is the most direct and community-facing, and it's one of the areas we have had the least visibility into as the general public.

I get that there is a bigger-picture mindset that is unlikely to shift, but ultimately that is where a lot of the anger and frustration stems from. The direct community-facing issues are what people interact with daily, so naturally they become the highest priority in the eyes of the community. I think that is why many people still feel there is a lack of change — because the outward-facing issues and culture still feel largely the same.

I think where a lot of the disconnect comes from is that many of the efforts happening behind the scenes are thoughtful and well-intentioned, but the average community member only really experiences what is directly visible to them day-to-day. So even if the work is being put in internally, if the outward-facing culture and recurring issues still feel the same, people are going to naturally conclude that little to nothing has changed. The attempts at transparency and continued community-facing engagement are going to be critical moving forward. I'm not saying every staff discussion should be publicized, but rebuilding that trust requires the public to consistently see progress, communication, and accountability in ways they can actually feel. I understand why Cel feels the way he does.

At the end of the day, I am very much past the point of "doom posting" or whatever else of that nature. I have shifted to a mindset of, where do we go from here? What lessons can be taken from this and how can they be applied? I want the exact same thing most people here want - for GL to overall feel healthy, fun, and worth investing energy into again. Genuinely, I think these conversations are productive steps in that direction.
 
Random Props said:
Firstly, thank you for posting this, because it is legitimately insightful into what is going on right now.

I want to preface my reply by saying that I did not intend for my reply here to elicit any hostility towards anyone - I have a collaborative mindset, and I want to work to help make this community succeed again. I think people are right to be frustrated with how everything has unfolded, and I do think there's a right to be upset with the speed in which changes are happening. I want to help however I can to enact changes as efficiently as possible. We are in such a deep hole, and I recognize the efforts being put in to try and dig ourselves out of it, and I respect Leadership a lot for continuing to work at it.

I think the evidence you have shown is a great start for those respective areas. I genuinely did not know exhibit A existed; that's a great initiative, and I’d love to see that used more. But I think exhibit C is by far the most important one because it is the most direct and community-facing, and it's one of the areas we have had the least visibility into as the general public.

I get that there is a bigger-picture mindset that is unlikely to shift, but ultimately that is where a lot of the anger and frustration stems from. The direct community-facing issues are what people interact with daily, so naturally they become the highest priority in the eyes of the community. I think that is why many people still feel there is a lack of change — because the outward-facing issues and culture still feel largely the same.

I think where a lot of the disconnect comes from is that many of the efforts happening behind the scenes are thoughtful and well-intentioned, but the average community member only really experiences what is directly visible to them day-to-day. So even if the work is being put in internally, if the outward-facing culture and recurring issues still feel the same, people are going to naturally conclude that little to nothing has changed. The attempts at transparency and continued community-facing engagement are going to be critical moving forward. I'm not saying every staff discussion should be publicized, but rebuilding that trust requires the public to consistently see progress, communication, and accountability in ways they can actually feel. I understand why Cel feels the way he does.

At the end of the day, I am very much past the point of "doom posting" or whatever else of that nature. I have shifted to a mindset of, where do we go from here? What lessons can be taken from this and how can they be applied? I want the exact same thing most people here want - for GL to overall feel healthy, fun, and worth investing energy into again. Genuinely, I think these conversations are productive steps in that direction.
Click to expand...
I agree uwu

Also, part of the motivation in me sharing this and even posting that excerpt is to let y'all express just that. "Give us something. Anything." to give the people slaving away at this the courage to post it, even if it's incomplete, even if it's partial, even if it's not necessarily the way things will go. To demonstrate that things ARE being worked on. I tried my best to advocate for bringing conversations to the staff team as a whole - and to the community as a whole. It's a dramatic culture shift and there's going to be a lot of insecurity, a ton of trial and error, in such a cataclysmic change to running things. Your - all of us' - encouragement matters here.

Your voices matter.
I can 100% unequivocally vouch for the fact that every current lead admin wants to hear what y'all think. They want to do right by you, by the community. Not as benevolent benefactors, but as people that are equally a part of the community. We are all together Giant's Lair. For a long time, there was a growing chasm between various parts of the community. That wasn't addressed and now things feel fractured. But most people hanging around *want* the community. They *want* to be part of our community. I do, you do, most of the faces we see in these threads do.
So use your voice. Not just for griping about Jabba, but for griping about the things you want, the things you love, the things you hate, the things you like, the things you dislike. When something is posted, join the conversation. Hang out in discord general chat and the other channels. Every little thing is what brings us back to feeling like a community.
And encourage the dumbos in orange and blue to get out of the staff channels and into just talking with everyone else. They want to, but they're burdened by both your and their own expectations. So encourage them to share the incomplete and imperfect. And when they do, join them in making it better. They want to, they really, honestly do.
So, from one frenling to the rest of you, you ARE the community. What we each add to this place is what it'll be. So add good things <3
 
Siddo said:
I don't really have much to contribute to this post specifically. But there's something - a sentiment - I would like to reply to:

Quantitative evidence, exhibit A:
Community polls and proposals, spearheaded by wink to gather feedback on specific changes from the community and open it to a public conversation instead of having it be decided internally in the staff team

Community Polls & Proposals

giantslair.com giantslair.com

Quantitative evidence, exhibit B:
anna (and I) asking for feedback on what the community wants out of the discord staff team, to help guide our efforts and make sure we were getting things right, addressing blind spots, and avoiding sniffing our own farts.
anna

Thread 'Discord Staff Team Discussion'

If it hasn't been made clear we need members of the community to not only feel like their opinions are heard and matter but offer an avenue to do so. While I am not prefect at this, I think this is a wonderful chance for everyone to share their opinions, hopes, dreams and wants with regards to our Discord Staff team.

Please share your opinions/suggestions below! I will be reading them all and while I cant promose they will be all acted on, I can promise they will be considered and heard. I have purposefully not provided my thoughts as I would like to not alter/discourage responses!
  • Friendly
  • Like

Quantitative evidence, exhibit C:
Arguably leaking, but another thing I was working on with anna while I was discord admin, is a public thread to cement both the guidelines for staff in how to approach situations in moderating discord in particular, and in kind what our expectations are from community members. Not some arbitrary "good faith" demand that just becomes an excuse to dismiss concerns raised. Instead, what we wanted to do is give out an open invitation to talk to us - with the promise that we'll actually listen. One example being exhibit B above. And while this was centered around Discord, it is/was our hope to let the discord moderation standards be the first blow to the toxic culture we've managed to cultivate on a broader community level.
This is only an excerpt and this is not the finalized version. It was still being worked on when I resigned so it might end up being quite different to what I post here.

But since the people long for actual quantitative evidence of action/change/actionable change, here's an excerpt featuring what I dubbed the cornerstones of (Discord) moderation.
It had colours and neat headings and all that funky layout work, but I can't edit the post to grab the bbcode for it, so you're getting it raw. Pretend it's neatly stylized.


Things ARE happening. Things ARE moving. Not all the stuff currently in the works is ready to be pushed public, partly because the ones making it are anxious to get it as damned close to right as possible. Partly because the avenues that have been given, only saw minimal input. Which is to be expected, given the state of things - nevertheless, it makes it difficult to listen when people stop speaking.
But I can with great confidence say that there's also an awareness of and a desire among leadership and admins to push more conversations down, closer to the community. They're still learning how to do this and the best ways to do this. Where it's impactful and where it's a waste of time. How to set it up to make the community's voice impactful. In some ways, the community has lost so much faith and excitement that the team isn't just starting to do this from scratch, we're starting from minus. There's a lot of damaged trust, a lot of people just going through the motions but no longer having fun. The absolute best thing you - anyone - can do right now, is to nibble when things start dropping. Give it the benefit of doubt. Play along even if you don't think it'll be great. Because there are good, kind, amazing people that have been and are working as hard as they can to make good things happen for this community.

Right or wrong, continuous posts like these about Jabba won't hit Jabba. He's made it very clear where he stands. And while I personally have quite a few disagreements with the leadership style being adopted by Jabba and I think that it sucks, I also recognize where energy is better spent. Posts like these are - in effect - just hurting the people that give a damn and have been doing their best to right the ship and make the lair fun to hang around. Hate Jabba all you want if that's what feels good for you. But one thing that was right in the OP is this: This community is ours.
No one person can save or destroy it, not Jabba, not any of the banned people, not any of the unbanned people. We together decide what this community should be. What it will become. So work together to make it a good one <3
Click to expand...
Awesome.

Genuinely an amazing post

Exhibit A: I thought this was just for mc, awesome to hear that it will be used for community decisions. I hope it will be used and not another feature thrown to the side, and abandoned. Having the community vote on who knows what will give a lot of people the thing they wanted the most, wanting there voice to matter.
Exhibit B: ADVERTISE THIS!!!!! PLEASE! People need to see and use this. It would help SO much.
Exhibit c: knowing that things are happening, moving and going on is awesome, and having some transparency on what’s happening is also very amazing.
Random Props said:
At the end of the day, I am very much past the point of "doom posting" or whatever else of that nature.
Click to expand...
:steamhappy:
Let’s all do this
 
Siddo said:
I don't really have much to contribute to this post specifically. But there's something - a sentiment - I would like to reply to:

Quantitative evidence, exhibit A:
Community polls and proposals, spearheaded by wink to gather feedback on specific changes from the community and open it to a public conversation instead of having it be decided internally in the staff team

Community Polls & Proposals

giantslair.com giantslair.com

Quantitative evidence, exhibit B:
anna (and I) asking for feedback on what the community wants out of the discord staff team, to help guide our efforts and make sure we were getting things right, addressing blind spots, and avoiding sniffing our own farts.
anna

Thread 'Discord Staff Team Discussion'

If it hasn't been made clear we need members of the community to not only feel like their opinions are heard and matter but offer an avenue to do so. While I am not prefect at this, I think this is a wonderful chance for everyone to share their opinions, hopes, dreams and wants with regards to our Discord Staff team.

Please share your opinions/suggestions below! I will be reading them all and while I cant promose they will be all acted on, I can promise they will be considered and heard. I have purposefully not provided my thoughts as I would like to not alter/discourage responses!
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Quantitative evidence, exhibit C:
Arguably leaking, but another thing I was working on with anna while I was discord admin, is a public thread to cement both the guidelines for staff in how to approach situations in moderating discord in particular, and in kind what our expectations are from community members. Not some arbitrary "good faith" demand that just becomes an excuse to dismiss concerns raised. Instead, what we wanted to do is give out an open invitation to talk to us - with the promise that we'll actually listen. One example being exhibit B above. And while this was centered around Discord, it is/was our hope to let the discord moderation standards be the first blow to the toxic culture we've managed to cultivate on a broader community level.
This is only an excerpt and this is not the finalized version. It was still being worked on when I resigned so it might end up being quite different to what I post here.

But since the people long for actual quantitative evidence of action/change/actionable change, here's an excerpt featuring what I dubbed the cornerstones of (Discord) moderation.
It had colours and neat headings and all that funky layout work, but I can't edit the post to grab the bbcode for it, so you're getting it raw. Pretend it's neatly stylized.


Things ARE happening. Things ARE moving. Not all the stuff currently in the works is ready to be pushed public, partly because the ones making it are anxious to get it as damned close to right as possible. Partly because the avenues that have been given, only saw minimal input. Which is to be expected, given the state of things - nevertheless, it makes it difficult to listen when people stop speaking.
But I can with great confidence say that there's also an awareness of and a desire among leadership and admins to push more conversations down, closer to the community. They're still learning how to do this and the best ways to do this. Where it's impactful and where it's a waste of time. How to set it up to make the community's voice impactful. In some ways, the community has lost so much faith and excitement that the team isn't just starting to do this from scratch, we're starting from minus. There's a lot of damaged trust, a lot of people just going through the motions but no longer having fun. The absolute best thing you - anyone - can do right now, is to nibble when things start dropping. Give it the benefit of doubt. Play along even if you don't think it'll be great. Because there are good, kind, amazing people that have been and are working as hard as they can to make good things happen for this community.

Right or wrong, continuous posts like these about Jabba won't hit Jabba. He's made it very clear where he stands. And while I personally have quite a few disagreements with the leadership style being adopted by Jabba and I think that it sucks, I also recognize where energy is better spent. Posts like these are - in effect - just hurting the people that give a damn and have been doing their best to right the ship and make the lair fun to hang around. Hate Jabba all you want if that's what feels good for you. But one thing that was right in the OP is this: This community is ours.
No one person can save or destroy it, not Jabba, not any of the banned people, not any of the unbanned people. We together decide what this community should be. What it will become. So work together to make it a good one <3
Click to expand...
The thing is I don't hate Jabba, but what is currently going on now here is what I have seen in several communities in the past and it's the main reason why I'm not on the side still making any effort to fix things; no matter how much you guys try to push the positive change it will always be bogged down as long as the leader who caused the issues remains on top and remains largely unaffected in the public facing sphere. If Jabba changed, not performatively but simply like a leader should in times like these, odds are you would've seen me and Props back and maybe even others. From what I have witnessed the past month or so is why I have remained apathetic and cynical, and I hate saying that because I don't want to direct that cynicism towards anybody who has poured their heart out to trying to patch things up, but it needs to be said.

I don't believe it a safe option at all to just ignore the elephant in the room and just pat him on the back and go "don't worry buddy we will fix things for you" because that doesn't fix the root problem, it just leaves it to fester as animosity remains a constant because, while good things are happening from you guys, it will constantly be overshadowed until that issue is uprooted. I have talked to several people who felt one of the core issues what that upper staff essentially employed gentle parenting tactics on the owner when they disagreed or tried steering the conversation in a direction they wanted, it never worked. I have heard that it has changed a bit, but it's not enough and no offense to anybody, it's still not nearly quick enough to prove to the community that you guys mean business. I know you guys have tried, but I have also seen just how futile it is. I don't want to say it's too little too late and I hate being a doomer, but from my experience, you guys are doing things detrimentally out of order by chugging forward and just neglecting the elephant.
 
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