Sticky TTT Weapon Feedback Megathread

[CelDamage]

This is the thread where you voice any of your feedback on how the weapons are currently balanced ~ What do you feel is too weak or too strong, or simply weapons that are boring or have crappy gun feel. Also tell us weapons you think are perfect the way they are and you think shouldn't be changed.

My plan is to gather as much information on how the community feels about our current balance, and from there create a mockup changelog proposal and bring it back to you guys to see how you think as well as my reasoning for any changes I propose... for example: "AAC Honeybadger - Recoil increased from 0.5 to 0.6 , Headshot multiplier decreased from 2.7 to 2.0 - Reason for change - Honeybadger has one of the best headshot multipliers for an AR, which shouldnt be the case given it is also one of the fastest and accurate" Obviously this is just an example, the actual proposed changes I come up with will be more formed around what the communities opinion on the weapons is. Also Obviously not everyone will agree, and that's fine. My goal here is to find the happy middleground where all weapons are fair and balanced, while still also being fun and feel good, and the only way we can do that is with your help. The more detailed you guys get, the better.

This is the spreadsheet that has all the current data for our weapons

GL TTT Weapon Stats.xlsx

docs.google.com

If you would prefer to PM me your opinions you are free to do so as well. I look forward to seeing what solutions we can come up with together!

 

[BrokenLync]

As the first person to reply, I hate the AK. Perhaps it can be balanced, I don’t care. I hate the AK. If there was a way to get “Kill the AK” posted all over the internet, I’d do it. I would die for it. Fuck the AK. I hate the AK.

 

[Sure Lock Homes]

USP,Tec-9, Mac-10, Remington 1858, Mossberg, F2000, MP5, Glock are all weapons that just do not get used because they are weak options compared to all others. USP and remington have way too large cones to reliably use. Tec, Mac, Moss, and F2000 damages are much lower than every other weapon of that type (F2000s recoil being way too high for that damage). MP5s firerate compared to other SMGs does not compete.

 

[ksharp]

To start, I like the SCAR-H and use it from time to time but I think it could use a little help. Maybe an increase in clip size from 20 to 25? I think that'd go a long way for it. Also I don't think it actively spawns on any maps

Generally I agree with Sure Lock's sentiments. I also think some of the snipers are worth looking at as the only ones I really see regular use of is the M24 & the Barrett (not including semi-auto rifles). Also, I'm not sure if this is still the case but the PSG reticle / scope was off-centered in the past and was noticed by others.

The MAC10 (@pigeon #mac10gang) among other SMGs could absolutely use a damage bump.

Benelli & Mossberg could use a bit of tuning as I feel like they are woefully underpowered for their weapon class.

Ideally, I would like to see some m9k weapons added that are not on the server: FN FAL, AS VAL, Vikhr, SIG P229R, HK45C, KRISS Vector, KAC PDW & the Magpul PDR.

 

[Random Props]

The Colt is in desperate need of a nerf. It's essentially a pocket sniper rifle and having it in your loadout is equivalent to having a second primary weapon as it stands

Otherwise, I would rather like to see the other weapons mentioned already get buffs rather than other weapons get nerfs, especially with how weak some of the guns like the MP5, MAC10, Glock, etc. are. More good guns leads to a more favourable player experience than more bad guns, in terms of balancing

 

[CelDamage]

The Colt is in desperate need of a nerf. It's essentially a pocket sniper rifle and having it in your loadout is equivalent to having a second primary weapon as it stands

Otherwise, I would rather like to see the other weapons mentioned already get buffs rather than other weapons get nerfs, especially with how weak some of the guns like the MP5, MAC10, Glock, etc. are. More good guns leads to a more favourable player experience than more bad guns, in terms of balancing

I do agree that all guns should be useable and fun and reviving the dead weapons is something that interests me more than nerfs, but at the same time I think that TTK for some of the strongest weapons is still too strong and those should have a modest dialing back. I dont think any weapon needs any heavy nerfing, and I feel like most of the nerfs can be achieved without much noticeable difference in gameplay. I'd argue the #1 offender is headshot multipliers being too high for some weapons

 

[SmellyGoatThing]

The Colt M1911, AK-47, HK-416, and Honeybadger are hands down without question overpowered, and are in desperate need of a nerf

The Tec-9, USP, F2000 are hands down without question underpowered, and are in desperate need of a buff

The AWP, Scout, and Barrett are all worse snipers than the M24 rifle


The M24 fires faster than the Winchester, and that's ridiculous

There's other weapons that need looked at as mentioned, that's just off the top of my head

 

[Nura]

Nerf the AK and make KSG great again.... let me snipe with that shit instead

 

[CelDamage]

The Colt M1911, AK-47, HK-416, and Honeybadger are hands down without question overpowered, and are in desperate need of a nerf

The Tec-9, USP, F2000 are hands down without question underpowered, and are in desperate need of a buff

The AWP, Scout, and Barrett are all worse snipers than the M24 rifle


The M24 fires faster than the Winchester, and that's ridiculous

There's other weapons that need looked at as mentioned, that's just off the top of my head

The M24 does fire too fast IMO, and that being said, do you think that the M24 and Winchester should swap fire rates? To me, the Winchester feels like it should fire faster than the others since its a wild west sharpshooter weapon, and right not its honestly in my top 5 shittiest weapons in terms of gun feel because its slow fire rate. My top 5 worst are the Tec, f2000, winchester 1873, double barrel and literally all the other shotguns that arent the KSG which is... an interesting weapon but one that shouldn't be changed too much since it is a server favorite

 

[SmellyGoatThing]

The M24 does fire too fast IMO, and that being said, do you think that the M24 and Winchester should swap fire rates? To me, the Winchester feels like it should fire faster than the others since its a wild west sharpshooter weapon, and right not its honestly in my top 5 shittiest weapons in terms of gun feel because its slow fire rate. My top 5 worst are the Tec, f2000, winchester 1873, double barrel and literally all the other shotguns that arent the KSG which is... an interesting weapon but one that shouldn't be changed too much since it is a server favorite

So, the Winchester 1887 isn't a Sniper rifle. It's a Marksman rifle. It should still be a high precision weapon that rewards skill and having it do 50 on body, 1 tap on head, is fine. The M24 does the same thing, but it has a scope for long range shooting. It also however, has only 5 bullets, compared to the Winchester's 8.


So if we swap just firerate, the M24 becomes a worse version of the Scout. This is what happens when you try to 'fix' one weapon at a time, it leads to another being instantly devalued or a carbon copy of said weapon being born.

We have, for sniper rifles:

AWP
Scout
Barrett
M24
PSG

What niches do they fill?

AWP - None (Legit, it is a CARBON COPY OF STATS IN THE CODE TO THE SCOUT)
Scout - Base rifle, 50 on body, 200 on head. Semi-quick, ol' reliable.
Barrett - None (is a CARBON COPY OF STATS IN THE CODE TO THE SCOUT BUT DEALS 25 MORE DAMAGE)
M24 - A Scout that fires faster at the cost of its magazine
PSG - A rapid-fire, inaccurate 'Sniper' rifle that sacrifices body damage for speed

This is awful, so let's rework the weapon class as a whole

Proposed rework:

Scout - Keep it where it is, it's reliable and tried and true, except

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002.
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AWP - A bridge between the Barrett and the Scout. Heavier. Slower. Same amount of ammunition.

Buff its damage to 75.

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002

Keep all other stats. If you look at the values, it is currently a carbon copy of the Scout. This makes no sense from a balancing or weapon-play standpoint. It is literally just a weaker Barrett. This makes it a proper bridge between the Scout, and my suggested version of the Barrett.
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Barrett - The heaviest hitter, as anyone would expect from said rifle. It's an Anti-Material rifle and in a lot of FPS games. It's the largest caliber. Yatta yatta.

Buff its damage to 90 on body. This would cause 50 on limb shot (or 49?) One of the two on perfect Karma/no body armor. Very strong as a sniper rifle.

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002

Nerf its delay to 2, instead of 1.5. Right now, the Barrett and AWP fire at the exact same speed despite one dealing 25 more damage. This is bad.

This would give the Barrett and incredible stance among snipers, valuing body shots as a whole, while sacrificing speed. Awful in close-quarters shooting against a majority of weapons, unlike the M24 and scout, which both can be used as CQC marksman rifles given their semi-fast speeds. This makes a wonderful niche for such a heavy, slow weapon, and paves the way for the AWP to have a place as a Sniper as well.
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M24 - A generic sniper rifle. Almost as generic as the Steyr Scout. It's in a good place at the moment, but it does outshine the Winchester- which is not a sniper rifle. No bolt-action sniper rifle should be out-gunning a scopeless Repeating rifle, however. These balances are not based off of realism, but it would be just as silly if you were to pick up a Desert Eagle only to find that it's suddenly a fully automatic .22.

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002

Nerf its Delay from 0.7 to 0.9. This slows it moderately, while still giving it fair edge over ALL other Sniper rifles. (Sans the Semi-Automatic PSG-1 obviously). This gives it ample firing speed for its halved magazine compared to its fellow snipers, basically making it a variant of the Scout

'Less bullets, but fires faster. Same Damage.' It's a good choice of variety.
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PSG-1 - By far one of the worst 'Sniper Rifles' in the game. It isn't a Sniper. It is balanced as Battle-Rifle. Its scope could be removed from the game and it'd have little effect on its usage. Great for CQC spam, HORRIBLE for sniping, which, is ridiculous for a Sniper. It should retain its precision, though its Semi-Automatic nature should not be underpowered. Also, 35 damage on body right now. That's horrible for a Sniper rifle, but I understand why it was set so lowly. Its delay is nearly as fast as you can click, which isn't grand.

Nerf its Delay from 0.15 to 0.25. This keeps it as a fast-firing Sniper Rifle, but not so much to where it NEEDS to be weakened damage and accuracy wise, giving room for buffs in other areas to make it a stand-out weapon. (For reference, the Mk14 EBR fires at this rate, and it is fairly slower compared to what the PSG-1 fires at now. It makes the world of a difference.)

Nerf its Recoil from 1 to 5. This is to give it the kick of a sniper rifle, so it's still 'spammable', has less recoil than an AWP/Scout/Barrett, but is lessened for automatic use. Also it having 1 in the first place is insane for a sniper rifle. (All Sniper rifles like the Scout/AWP/Barrett are currently at a 7. 5 would be notably lesser than this but GREATLY MORE THAN 1)

Buff its base damage from 35 to 45. This denies the 2 shot body kill, which would make it very annoying, but makes it a hard hitter regardless. You are trading damage for speed and lesser recoil.

Buff its horrid accuracy/cone from 0.012 to 0.005. This gives it the accuracy of the Marksman rifle stats I'm going to propose. It's slightly LESS accurate than the other Sniper Rifles, but it fires faster and can still hit head very reliably at a distance. (For instance, the SCOUT is currently at 0.005 in game.)

These changes entirely rework the PSG-1 into a formidable at-range threat as well as a lesser CQC battle rifle should the need arise.

VERY NOTABLE EDIT: While reviewing the Marksman rifle stats I realized that all Marksman rifles are for some reason MORE ACCURATE than like all the snipers??? This should be swapped. The slower and higher damage the weapon, the more accurate it should be. I will be altering the buffs above to account for this change, and I will be posting the change for the Marksman rifle stats. Feel free to change your likes/agrees @pigeon @CelDamage @Random Props

 

[Nura]

I think this part only applies to me really since I like to run around holstered 24/7 but there is a big delay between swapping to some weapons like awp and ksg and being able to fire. (think ksg has the biggest delay) unlike with scout and m24 which is almost instant.

 

[SmellyGoatThing]

I think this part only applies to me really since I like to run around holstered 24/7 but there is a big delay between swapping to some weapons like awp and ksg and being able to fire. (think ksg has the biggest delay) unlike with scout and m24 which is almost instant.

Those are M9K animations and are purely cosmetic, sans the Silence Pistol (This one has an actual delay in firing after being pulled out). They are purely cosmetic. You can fire and aim while they occur.

 

[pigeon]

I'm not sure if limb damage reduction is uniform across all guns or not, but if it isn't it would be cool to know what the numbers are for each weapon. As a senior mac10 enjoyer, the gun is honestly not as bad as people make it out to be, it's just too reliant on headshots and too punished by limb shots. I would love to see it be made more forgiving rather than just giving it a straight damage increase. As a starting point, I'd say bumping the base damage up from 12 to 15 or even 16, then lowering the hs mult from 2.7 to 2.16 or 2.025 respectively, and making the limb multiplier more forgiving to some degree. Obviously untested numbers, but this keeps the ceiling exactly where it is now while making it more effective on body and limb shots.

I think the tommy gun and p90 are in great spots, with the p90 feeling a bit on the weaker side (but I think that's perfectly fine). They really just need to be able to pick up 150 and 100 reserve ammo off the floor, respectively.

I can see the argument for swapping the fire rate between the m24 and winchester 1873, but honestly I think the winchester feels very satisfying (not strong) as is and I would personally like it less if it fired faster. I would rather buff it (and most rifles) by making the cone smaller. I think depending on what people want the core identity of the winchester 1873 to be, you could go either route, but my that's my personal preference.

M24 fire rate feels out of place though, I think that should be lowered to some degree regardless. Doesn't need to be a ton and it can be buffed in some other way because snipers as a whole don't really need a nerf. I just think the fire rate feels wrong, independent of weapon balance.

KSG should be grouped with rifles because it behaves like one. It's much more like the winchester than any shotgun. No comment on balance for it rn because I don't feel like thinking about it.

Shotguns as a whole:
Sweer made this great breakdown of shotguns that should be brought up when discussing shotgun balance. Broadly, I agree with the notion that the pellet damage and pellet count should multiply out to 115-130 rather than 100. Numbers subject to testing of course, but I think that's a great starting point.
In addition to the archetype feeling very bad, I'd like to see some individual differentiation between shotguns. I'd propose establishing an identity of sorts for each. Doesn't have to be this exactly, but something like this:

• Double Barrel - High everything. It should just delete everything in front of you and then leave you really vulnerable if you need to shoot again. Target 130+ total damage
• Mossberg - Slower firing, above average damage, most accurate of the shotguns. Something about this shotgun feels a bit more accurate than other shotguns to me for some reason. I'd love for a shotgun to stand out as having much tighter spread and lower recoil, encouraging accurate shot placement and pacing. Target 130 total damage
• Shotgun - It's so generic, feel like this one should just be kinda the jack of all trades. Keep it close to its vanilla stats, maybe bump up or down the damage to keep it in line with other shotguns, and use it as a measuring stick for all the other shotguns. Target 115-120 total damage
• Winchester 1887 - This is kind of in a weird spot. Magazine of 4 suggests it shouldn't be as spammy as other shotguns, and tweaking the magazine size might feel off given that it has custom animations. At the same time, it has a short barrel and the animations are very loose so it feels like it should be spammed. I like the idea of a higher fire rate shotgun that is balanced around killing extremely consistently in 2-3 fast shots depending on accuracy. Target 100 total damage
• Benelli - This is kinda the odd one out now. I feel like other common shotgun archetypes are sufficiently covered by the above ideas. Maybe this sits somewhere between the Mossberg and Winchester 1887? Unsure about this

These 'identities' are based on what seems intuitive for me, nothing else. Just how I would expect each gun to perform if I had never used them before but picked them up and guessed how they would perform based on nothing other than how they look and sound. Obviously none of these identities need to be tied to any particular gun, these are just shotgun archetypes I'd like to see in place to differentiate between different shotguns. The Target ___ total damage number is what I would want that particular identity to aim for in terms of pellet count x pellet damage.

Remington:
I think you can safely make this more accurate. It doesn't need to be accurate across the map, but it should be able to consistently kill an afk two barrel lengths away. Alt fire could also be made more accurate as well. In its current form it can't even kill someone point blank.

Tec-9:
Call me crazy, but I think the tec-9 is actually in a great spot for what it wants to do. I don't play cs2, but I believe it's not accurate to how it performs there, which might be unintuitive for players. But aside from that, it's a great clean up weapon to swap to after a sniper body shot or when you run out of ammo. I don't think most secondary weapons need to be solid on their own, and I like having secondaries that are designed for cleanup. It still could use a buff, but I don't think the target should be making it an independently strong weapon comparable to the colt M1911 or deagle. The better target would be the USP or glock (which both also could use buffs), as I think all three should be regarded as cleanup weapons. For the tec9, I like leaning into the massive magazine by increasing the fire rate. (Delay 0.2 -> 0.15)

Five Seven:
I think this is in a great spot, the best of the non-onetap secondaries. I am disappointed by the accuracy sometimes, but I see that it has the same accuracy as the deagle. This should not be more accurate than the deagle, but I could go either way on whether or not this and the deagle and other similar secondaries should be more accurate. If the deagle accuracy gets buffed, I think this should also get an accuracy buff. Otherwise I don't think this needs to be touched.

USP:
This needs help badly. There's no reason for this to be as inaccurate as the dual berettas. Maybe to offset the ridiculously high headshot multiplier? I'd rather it feel usable with a lower headshot multiplier than feel like a slot machine where you do 81 damage 5% of the time, 18 damage 10% of the time, and completely miss the rest of the time. If deagle and five seven don't get accuracy buffs, I propose [Cone 0.05 -> 0.0275, damage 18 -> 20, HS mult 4.5 -> 3] just as a starting point and going from there. If other secondaries do get accuracy buffs, I would propose [Cone 0.05 -> 0.02, damage 18 -> 20, HS mult 4.5 -> 3].

Glock:
Feel like this struggles as a clean up tool compared to other similar options, primarily because it runs out of ammo too quickly. Magazine size increase could be fine if the tec9 gets majorly reworked. I think I would rather just see this get similar treatment to the mac10, with increased body shot damage, more forgiving limb multiplier, and lower headshot multiplier to compensate. Maybe also make the reload faster.

Dragunov:
I stand by the notion that having access to a sniper in slot 7 without needing to drop your AK/honey badger/whatever else is already worth a credit. Having it be suppressed and not show tracers as well is also extremely valuable. I really don't think this needs any tweaks.

Intervention:
Same deal where I think the inherent value of this is having a sniper without needing to drop your AK. But this could use more power or utility to be worth the credit. In sgm it could be charged by holding down the trigger, I think up to 90 damage. That was pretty cool and I wouldn't mind that, but if we want to go a different route from that I could see simply boosting the base damage up from 60 to 75 or even more than that. Whatever number we settle on, consider that as a detective weapon, it should be balanced around shooting targets that will have body armor. As such, it should reliably kill a traitor with body armor in 2 shots.

Jackhammer:
Buff it in line with the other shotguns, which is to say make its pellet count x pellet damage number be like 15-30% higher. It has low recoil, high fire rate, and a big magazine so it should be pretty busted, and that's fine because it's a credit weapon. It just needs better damage to do that.

UMP:
I know the damage is awful, but I'll paraphrase what I said in the other thread about detective weapons. This gun offers a crazy amount of utility. It is awful trying to shoot back at someone shooting you with this. Sure it's not going to get a kill as quickly as an AK, but if you're not getting shot back at, it doesn't need to. I could see an argument for increasing the body shot damage and lowering the headshot multiplier to keep the ceiling in a similar spot and just making the most forgiving weapon in the game a bit more forgiving, but I don't think it needs it.

Smith and Wesson:
This is truly irredeemable without some major changes. It's most obvious problem is that it for some reason has the same accuracy as the usp and dual berettas, but even if you give it the same accuracy as the deagle, it still has an arguably even bigger problem: it's a slot seven weapon and it costs a credit. That means it isn't competing with other secondary weapons, it's competing with the health station, jackhammer, intervention, and UMP. Even if it did 95 body shot damage and had sniper accuracy, it's still hard to justify using over the intervention which also kills in 2 body shots with sniper accuracy, but has a scope. My main proposal is removing this gun. If not that, moving it to slot 8 AND buffing it to be as accurate as the deagle. At that point, it still probably wouldn't be worth the credit.

Other arguments I've seen have been to make it work like a golden deagle kinda thing, where it kills traitors instantly but kills the detective if they shoot an inno with it. We've decided in the past that we don't want to do that, largely because it's very frustrating to die to on a random chance shot unless you enforce RDM rules with it, which defeats the purpose of it being a high risk deduction payoff. I've also seen arguments to make it a single shot instant kill weapon, but we already have the taser. Detectives don't need multiple single use instakill weapons.

 

[Nura]

Those are M9K animations and are purely cosmetic, sans the Silence Pistol (This one has an actual delay in firing after being pulled out). They are purely cosmetic. You can fire and aim while they occur.

Nope the KSG will not let you fire at all...(until some time passes) thats why I can't do my quick fire swapping thing with either AWP or KSG cause they so clunky

and since i'm already replying to you + got your attention you were lowkey cooking with some of the sniper changes but you left out couple of snipers

 

[SmellyGoatThing]

Nope the KSG will not let you fire at all...(until some time passes) thats why I can't do my quick fire swapping thing with either AWP or KSG cause they so clunky

and since i'm already replying to you + got your attention you were lowkey cooking with some of the sniper changes but you left out couple of snipers

Sniper Rifles and Marksman rifles are not the same thing nor do they fill the same niches, one minute

Doing the Marksman rifles now. Also I DID leave out the D and T weapons on purpose because they have their own niches to be worth a credit, I'll edit them into the post though after I add these Marksman rifle suggestions to the thread

 

[SmellyGoatThing]

So, the Winchester 1887 isn't a Sniper rifle. It's a Marksman rifle. It should still be a high precision weapon that rewards skill and having it do 50 on body, 1 tap on head, is fine. The M24 does the same thing, but it has a scope for long range shooting. It also however, has only 5 bullets, compared to the Winchester's 8.


So if we swap just firerate, the M24 becomes a worse version of the Scout. This is what happens when you try to 'fix' one weapon at a time, it leads to another being instantly devalued or a carbon copy of said weapon being born.

We have, for sniper rifles:

AWP
Scout
Barrett
M24
PSG

What niches do they fill?

AWP - None (Legit, it is a CARBON COPY OF STATS IN THE CODE TO THE SCOUT)
Scout - Base rifle, 50 on body, 200 on head. Semi-quick, ol' reliable.
Barrett - None (is a CARBON COPY OF STATS IN THE CODE TO THE SCOUT BUT DEALS 25 MORE DAMAGE)
M24 - A Scout that fires faster at the cost of its magazine
PSG - A rapid-fire, inaccurate 'Sniper' rifle that sacrifices body damage for speed

This is awful, so let's rework the weapon class as a whole

Proposed rework:

Scout - Keep it where it is, it's reliable and tried and true, except

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AWP - A bridge between the Barrett and the Scout. Heavier. Slower. Same amount of ammunition.

Buff its damage to 75.

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002

Keep all other stats. If you look at the values, it is currently a carbon copy of the Scout. This makes no sense from a balancing or weapon-play standpoint. It is literally just a weaker Barrett. This makes it a proper bridge between the Scout, and my suggested version of the Barrett.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barrett - The heaviest hitter, as anyone would expect from said rifle. It's an Anti-Material rifle and in a lot of FPS games. It's the largest caliber. Yatta yatta.

Buff its damage to 90 on body. This would cause 50 on limb shot (or 49?) One of the two on perfect Karma/no body armor. Very strong as a sniper rifle.

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002

Nerf its delay to 2, instead of 1.5. Right now, the Barrett and AWP fire at the exact same speed despite one dealing 25 more damage. This is bad.

This would give the Barrett and incredible stance among snipers, valuing body shots as a whole, while sacrificing speed. Awful in close-quarters shooting against a majority of weapons, unlike the M24 and scout, which both can be used as CQC marksman rifles given their semi-fast speeds. This makes a wonderful niche for such a heavy, slow weapon, and paves the way for the AWP to have a place as a Sniper as well.
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M24 - A generic sniper rifle. Almost as generic as the Steyr Scout. It's in a good place at the moment, but it does outshine the Winchester- which is not a sniper rifle. No bolt-action sniper rifle should be out-gunning a scopeless Repeating rifle, however. These balances are not based off of realism, but it would be just as silly if you were to pick up a Desert Eagle only to find that it's suddenly a fully automatic .22.

Buff its accuracy/cone to 0.002

Nerf its Delay from 0.7 to 0.9. This slows it moderately, while still giving it fair edge over ALL other Sniper rifles. (Sans the Semi-Automatic PSG-1 obviously). This gives it ample firing speed for its halved magazine compared to its fellow snipers, basically making it a variant of the Scout

'Less bullets, but fires faster. Same Damage.' It's a good choice of variety.
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PSG-1 - By far one of the worst 'Sniper Rifles' in the game. It isn't a Sniper. It is balanced as Battle-Rifle. Its scope could be removed from the game and it'd have little effect on its usage. Great for CQC spam, HORRIBLE for sniping, which, is ridiculous for a Sniper. It should retain its precision, though its Semi-Automatic nature should not be underpowered. Also, 35 damage on body right now. That's horrible for a Sniper rifle, but I understand why it was set so lowly. Its delay is nearly as fast as you can click, which isn't grand.

Nerf its Delay from 0.15 to 0.25. This keeps it as a fast-firing Sniper Rifle, but not so much to where it NEEDS to be weakened damage and accuracy wise, giving room for buffs in other areas to make it a stand-out weapon. (For reference, the Mk14 EBR fires at this rate, and it is fairly slower compared to what the PSG-1 fires at now. It makes the world of a difference.)

Nerf its Recoil from 1 to 5. This is to give it the kick of a sniper rifle, so it's still 'spammable', has less recoil than an AWP/Scout/Barrett, but is lessened for automatic use. Also it having 1 in the first place is insane for a sniper rifle. (All Sniper rifles like the Scout/AWP/Barrett are currently at a 7. 5 would be notably lesser than this but GREATLY MORE THAN 1)

Buff its base damage from 35 to 45. This denies the 2 shot body kill, which would make it very annoying, but makes it a hard hitter regardless. You are trading damage for speed and lesser recoil.

Buff its horrid accuracy/cone from 0.012 to 0.005. This gives it the accuracy of the Marksman rifle stats I'm going to propose. It's slightly LESS accurate than the other Sniper Rifles, but it fires faster and can still hit head very reliably at a distance. (For instance, the SCOUT is currently at 0.005 in game.)

These changes entirely rework the PSG-1 into a formidable at-range threat as well as a lesser CQC battle rifle should the need arise.

VERY NOTABLE EDIT: While reviewing the Marksman rifle stats I realized that all Marksman rifles are for some reason MORE ACCURATE than like all the snipers??? This should be swapped. The slower and higher damage the weapon, the more accurate it should be. I will be altering the buffs above to account for this change, and I will be posting the change for the Marksman rifle stats. Feel free to change your likes/agrees @pigeon @CelDamage @Random Props

We have, for Marksman Rifles:

HK-USC
HK-SL8
M14
M14 EBR
Winchester

What niches do they fill?

HK-USC - Speed. It is fast, and pumps out two-shot headshots, at the sacrifice of accuracy. It is closer to an AK-47 than it is any sniper rifle, so it is at the start of the spectrum between the two categories.

HK-SL8 - Literally a carbon copy of the M14 EBR in the code. We should fix this. Redundancy is bad.

M14 - Not sure. None, really. It is too inaccurate to rely on its headshot modifier from mid-range. It's Automatic for some reason, despite firing slower than the USC.

M14 EBR - A good rifle between Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles, though definitely leans more towards snipers given its 1 tap damage and slow firing rate- and reduced magazine size.

Winchester - The Hardest hitter of Marksman rifles, and closest to the Sniper Category. It would be one if it had a scope.

So obviously we have some overlap, some things in right places, we don't need a full rewrite of these stats, but we should alter a few to make them more varied, especially between the SL8 and EBR. The M14 obviously requires a buff as well, and the Winchester shouldn't be getting outgunned by the M24 Sniper rifle, as mentioned previously by @CelDamage.

HK-USC - It's fine, honestly. It's weird we have this as a battle rifle stat-wise- it's weird that we added the Civilian Sportsman version of a German Sub Machine gun when we HAVE the UMP on-server. We could remove it and replace its stats with one of the weapons above, that would make more sense, but I doubt we'll remove content, so, let's leave it where it is. At 25 rounds, spammable click-fire, and two-tap headshots, it's not the worst weapon, and is very formidable.
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HK-SL8 - It's a carbon copy of the M14 EBR, so let's find it its own niche. Let's bridge the gap between the M14s, and the USC. The spectrum is Assault Rifle <--> Marksman Rifles <--> Snipers. Let's make it closer to an Assault rifle. (This one is also a weird Civilian Sporstsman version of the G36 Assault Rifle. I do not know why we would add this let alone make it an Marksman Rifle.)

Buff its base damage from 30 to 35. This is 10 more than the USC, giving it a notable punch across the board.

Buff its magazine from 10, to 20. 5 less than the USC, 10 more than the rifles ahead of it.

Buff its Delay from 0.4 to 0.2, halving its delay and making it almost spammable. Slower than the USC, faster than a PSG-1 sniper rifle post-rework above.

Buff its Recoil from 3 to 2. This makes it more spammable and allows for decent follow-up shots at range- while still providing a challenge to the shooter.

Nerf its accuracy from 0.002 to 0.007. This moderately reduces accuracy at LONG range, keeping it closer to a mid-range rifle. Keep in mind the current SCOUT accuracy is 0.005, and it is very accurate. Snipers should be more accurate than all battle rifles. This also makes it SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate than the USC.

Nerf its headshot multiplier from 6x (210 dmg on head) to 2.5x (88 dmg on head). This makes it not an insta-kill, but higher in damage to the USC by 20 points. It cripples anyone it hits, making a follow-up body shot an insta-kill. This is absolutely necessary for its spammable nature alongside its very accurate buff.



These changes give the SL8 a fair and original place in the server. It's a bridge between the harder-hitting M14 rifles and Winchester, while giving a fair place to the USC.
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M14 - I do not know why we have both the M14 and M14 EBR in the same server, the M14 is legit more dogshit in everyway, but we aren't focusing on realism so we can make a place for it anyway between the M14 EBR and the HK-SL8.

Buff its cone/accuracy from 0.2 to 0.005. This should be the standard for more accurate and precision-based Marksman rifles, and it is what our current sniper rifles are currently at (WHICH SHOULD CHANGE). This buff alone makes the M14 useable.

Buff its base damage from 32 to 40. This makes body-shots more rewarding from afar yet doesn't steal the place of the 2-hit Snipers or Winchester.

Nerf its headshot multiplier from 2.7x (currently deals 84 on headshot) to 2x (would deal 80 on headshot with new damage).

Nerf its Delay from 0.25 to 0.3. This sets it nicely between the proposed SL8 and M14 EBR.

Nerf its AUTOMATIC state to FALSE. Seriously- this makes it feel so unnatural and oddly coded. It's slower than the USC but for some reason is a full-auto (hold down the mouse to fire). Just keep it semi-auto.

And that's it. You are giving up a Scope and 1-tap potential for 10 more bullets, and higher firerate, which really is fair. It nestles it as a notable counterpart yet similar rifle to the M14 EBR. Really the largest, CURRENT issue with the M14 is the fact that's it's an inaccurate piece of fuck
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M14 EBR - A VERY accurate semi-auto rifle and a favorite among many. As your bullets go where you actually shoot at. With the proposed buff to snipers accuracy wise (As, once again, Snipers should always be more accurate to semi-auto rifles), I will suggest minor changes to this weapon, along with a damage shift to make it a more formidable weapon between the Winchester and M14.

Nerf its accuracy/cone from 0.002 to 0.005. Explained reasoning above and in the sniper post at the bottom as a foot note. Snipers = More accurate than Battle Rifles.

Buff its base damage from 30 to 40, so it can 3-hit body instead of 4 hit. This makes it closer to a sniper than an Assault Rifle, and since we're nearing the end of the spectrum, that's what we're aiming for.

Those are my only suggestions. Makes it fair as a Marksman rifle. Accurate. Hard Hitting. Slightly slow and low-magged. Faster than snipers, but weaker. Requires skill to use but has high potential for reward.
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Winchester 1873.

It's near perfect, really, but it should be faster than the M24, as it has less ranged capability.

Buff its Delay from 0.9 to 0.7. Basically swapping firerates with the M24 in my above post.



These proposes give each Marksman Rifle/Battle Rifle its own niche, and also makes them slightly less accurate than Sniper Rifles are. (Currently, the Winchester, M14 EBR, and SL8 are all more accurate than the AWP, Scout, Barrett, and M24, and as stated like 5 times, that's ridiculous.)