GL isn't dying. It's being reborn.

[Siddo]

One of the things that surprised me the most about the Sunny/Pierogi situation was the reactions everyone else had to Sunny's dead mom insult. In my eyes it was just an ordinary insult, and I thought people were going way overboard with their reactions to what she said.

Then last night it hit me. I grew up in a broken household with an emotionally neglectful mom. I mentioned this in the OP, but I'm no contact with my family and that's not changing anytime soon.

I'll never see that insult the same way that someone with a loving caring mother would, because it's a pain I'll never experience. Jabba is in the same boat as me, and it makes sense that the people who don't have an issue with what Sunny said are all people who don't have good relationships with their parents.

Think whatever you want about me/Jabba for our reactions to the comment. All I want is for someone to understand why I felt more for Sunny than I did for Pierogi.

Btw, if you saw Sunny's comment and felt like it was the worst thing she could say to someone, that means you have a good mother and you shouldn't take that for granted.

In the interest of coming at you from a place of compassion, I'll try to explain it at least in part. I'm at work so if it ends up a bit rushed, forgive me.

The context is extremely crucial, as is the nature of the comment.
It wasn't a joke. It was said with the intent to hurt. And it was said knowingly to someone who had let themselves be vulnerable on that specific subject. Who had bared how much it hurt, how awful it has been to live through, and how much it wrecked them.
And sunny knowingly, intentionally, for half an hour made repeated comments doubling down over and over on mocking that grief and loss.
The specific is awful on its own merit. It's an awful comment to make. No ifs or buts. Mocking grief is always an asshole move.

But even if you cannot relate to the specific... You should be able to empathise with the general. To have your weakest moment, your most vulnerable spot, repeatedly hammered while everyone looks on. By your own account, you've been bullied, so you should know just how much that can mess you up. That's why people are so up in arms. This wasn't just a spiteful comment or an in the heat of the moment jab. This was repeated, with intent, without remorse.
I hope this helps with understanding the perspective many others have into this and why it might ring hollow to hear explanation or justification for Sunny's actions or the perception you have of it. Because by most people's metrics, it was frankly cruel.

 

[Everlong]

are you guys going to see the new minions movie

...there's another one?

 

[Chou]

...there's another one?

Another light mode user? og:

 

[tiefling lesbian]

...there's another one?

 

[Siddo]

Mom facebook groups are about to get wild.

(also this is kinda off-topic so while we do need to hit our daily minion quota, try to contribute directly to the conversation while doing so <3)

 

[Agennon]

I'll never see that insult the same way that someone with a loving caring mother would, because it's a pain I'll never experience. Jabba is in the same boat as me, and it makes sense that the people who don't have an issue with what Sunny said are all people who don't have good relationships with their parents.

Think whatever you want about me/Jabba for our reactions to the comment. All I want is for someone to understand why I felt more for Sunny than I did for Pierogi.

I want the record to show that Rhaz and I are not in this specific boat together.

The comments made were absolutely horrible to make about a deceased loved one.

Since I'm clarifying this, I might as well add that I was also not particularly moved by your personal anecdote when I changed my mind about the bans referenced.

<3

 

[Everlong]

Another light mode user? og:

have you seen my old suggestion for a light mode forum option? its really old here

 

[Pierogi]

I want the record to show that Rhaz and I are not in this specific boat together.

The comments made were absolutely horrible to make about a deceased loved one.

Since I'm clarifying this, I might as well add that I was also not particularly moved by your personal anecdote when I changed my mind about the bans referenced.

<3

If they were so horrible, why did you refuse to consider anything past a one day timeout?

Why weren’t you the one handling your discretionary mod’s behavior?

Why did you completely minimize sunny’s actions in your announcement on April 21st, instead using it as an opportunity to ban people you didn’t like?

Is there any truth to the comments from multiple admins+ that you were staffing while high on April 20th, when sunny made those comments?

You’re just as bad as she is.

 

[8BitF0x]

GL isn't dying, it's being murdered. Two different things for sure!

 

[Husky]

GL isn't dying. It's in the process of a transformation started by the Big Red and while he'll never tell you what goals he has in mind, they're adamantly present and clear based on his actions and words (as well as the lack of such).

@Agennon
Not that I am exempt from this point, but you can't give people as a leader a series of expectations and asking them to provide "good faith" interactions when you yourself witnessed something sick and vile being done, only to completely ignore it, refuse to acknowledge it, then having to be SHAMED into punishing said person for longer when the ORIGINAL person who extended the ban was actually afraid that they would be demoted from all of their roles for it.

Think about that. A person who believed that said aggressor deserved longer than a DAY and worrying about losing their roles here because they were worried that they went against your direction.

How do you get to sit here as a leader and expect others to follow in your footsteps when you go against everything you've been asking for Giants Lair to stand for? What expectation do you want them to have that shows good faith
when you witnessed a man's dearly departed mother (may she rest in peace) being desecrated with the sole intent to hurt the son and you did NOTHING.

You outright weren't going to ban them at least anywhere near what they deserved, and now you've continued to ignore all of the problems that been caused by this and many other things.

You don't get to wish ANYONE happy mother's day after you took someone who is closely associated with you and even did business with and ignored their pleas and their traumatic and vulnerable moments. You refused to at some points punish said person for what they said.


Good vibes? Chill environment? You left this place to burn despite everyone politely and albeit sometimes impolitely trying to point you in any direction that wasn't outright ignoring the problem, hoping the people who have a problem go away, and go get drunk late-night fishing. You have threads on threads discussing these points, trying to be as nice as possible trying to show you that there's more than one viewpoint. Not every single one is polite, but people TRIED.

Getting told to drop this and that people are trying to move on, when in reality they are also just tired of the shit you pulled and how little you care by your lack of interaction.

I even pointed out that these people needed you to speak to them, and you told me "You get more flies with honey" as if you're throwing some ancient Chinese proverb filled with wisdom that would open my eyes or maybe give me or anyone else reading it some perspective on how you feel. Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

I keep getting told that people need to learn and move on from this, but while you're still here, that wound will not heal - especially when you think ignoring it and fishing in the middle of the night is your only solution.

You had people that put money, time, and effort into this place, and frankly it's sickening watching you try to just walk past this and expect others to just blindly continue building your community for you knowing all it takes for you to bring it down is that you don't vibe with the message.

This place cannot heal while you ignore it. This place cannot truly move forward with you choosing to believe that the solution is to continue to ignore it.

While you act with cowardice and refuse to either acknowledge the situation one way or another.

I don't care about "kicking the hornet's nest" any longer. I've been nothing but wishy-washy on how I exactly want to support this place, and frankly I am tired of believing that it can be saved while you still choose to do this.

Do better.

Your forums most active threads since that day were the Farewells and general threads speaking to you directly. Does that mean anything to you? How much fishing or smoking weed do you think it will take before you can feel better about ignoring the true problems of your community?

Do what you have to do after this, but frankly it saddens me that you've made my friends feel like shit, and it saddens me as a fellow human to see you acting so cruelly. It saddens me that people even have to fight with you this much to a point where they have almost complete certainty that you'll never acknowledge any of this again and hopes to just have a fun place to hang out again.

You lost sight of that all. Lost sight on what you want to be, what you want this community to be, and what you want to be as a leader.

You've changed.

 

[Husky]

Hey everyone, as a follow-up to yesterday's post, I want to also make a few more points.

This isn't a difference in opinion over an ice cream flavor or favorite music. This isn't a difference in ideals such as a religion, or a difference in what your favorite Pokemon is.

This is an adult that allowed and willfully ignored the hateful actions done to one of his developers and close staff. This isn't something that you can just ignore. This is a person that is asking you to follow "good faith interactions" and "present a willingness for both sides to communicate" meanwhile all @Agennon has been posting in the past weeks is in the counting thread or in the general chat telling you about his fishing spots or how much weed he smoked.

AND WE SIT HERE DOING NOTHING. WE'RE WILLFULLY IGNORING IT AS TIME PASSED.

He wants us to ignore it. He wants us to just let him silently ignore it and step away from his actions. He doesn't get to.

This isn't about doom-saying or believing where things are going is to shit. This isn't about being negative or positive. This is about the very real actions that occurred and the very real inaction that The Big Red had done.

An instance of wrongdoing has occurred, and I am asking that everyone be held to the same standards that HE ASKS US TO FOLLOW.

The most you've done for these last few weeks other than smoking so much weed and catching so much fish are these two things:



Those are other than the announcement on discord (which did nothing btw) the two ONLY things you did. At least publicly.


So which of the highlighted statements above should we believe?

Can't say you've been present these past few weeks and it's not shocking.

Ok sure you've taken some steps - yeah you've taken some steps away from the problems and ignore them instead of handling them like an adult.

We have to work together huh? Does that include you ignoring everyone's messages and pleas for help and instead you go fishing and drink or smoke your problems away? Or did you just mean you wanted us to just trust your judgement and not ask questions?


As a final thing to say and I say this to the people that keep asking others to move on - no, I don't think anyone should move on and in fact demand answers from the GROWN ADULT that is cowarding behind fishing trips instead of handling a community he has so much pride on.

You put yourself on Big Red's side by allowing him to walk away from this without recognizing the wrongdoing and pain he's caused. The divide he's caused. The farewells and the sadness that he's caused.

Be better.

 

[Husky]

@Shaddoll - It seems you as a lead admin disagree with my points which is completely fine and valid you have a right to that, to which I will now list those points for a reference here:

- Jabba is not exempt from the standards he asks of his team and should be held accountable to that same standard equally as he has said in the past publicly.

- Jabba should have stepped in sooner to the situation, considering that was his discretionary mod and in most cases it is a reflection of the person in charge of said person. Not always, but it is at least considered. Being active in the chat at the very time it was happening while doing little to nothing speaks a lot to how Jabba handled it.

I'm sure there's more I can sit here and pick at but I think you get the point. The point it is was grossly mishandled and I think that has caused many people grief.

What parts do you disagree with exactly? How can I better understand your viewpoint?

What exactly justifies what Jabba has done and refuses to acknowledge?

Do you believe Jabba should not be held accountable?

Do you believe that Jabba had valid reasons for both what happened that day and what happened afterwards?

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Vyx]

@Shaddoll - It seems you as a lead admin disagree with my points which is completely fine and valid you have a right to that, to which I will now list those points for a reference here:

- Jabba is not exempt from the standards he asks of his team and should be held accountable to that same standard equally as he has said in the past publicly.

- Jabba should have stepped in sooner to the situation, considering that was his discretionary mod and in most cases it is a reflection of the person in charge of said person. Not always, but it is at least considered. Being active in the chat at the very time it was happening while doing little to nothing speaks a lot to how Jabba handled it.

I'm sure there's more I can sit here and pick at but I think you get the point. The point it is was grossly mishandled and I think that has caused many people grief.

What parts do you disagree with exactly? How can I better understand your viewpoint?

What exactly justifies what Jabba has done and refuses to acknowledge?

Do you believe Jabba should not be held accountable?

Do you believe that Jabba had valid reasons for both what happened that day and what happened afterwards?

Hope to hear from you soon.

I have a better question. at this point, Does it even matter?

It's Very Clear Jabba isn't going to respond to this or ever truly be held accountable. Everyone else is already on the point of moving on and trying to keep things afloat ala Highwon days (I've been told he still converses in staff channels a lot so not a full Highwon). Or they have already departed the community.

This has been going on for over a month now and to be frank. It's no longer the Jabba inaction being the main cause of the rift for player Stagnation and departures. It's the constant rehashing over this already month+ old drama.

Every time I think we've pulverized this (thirsty) dead horse. Someone finds a slightly tenderized with a little meat that the broken and bloodied baseball bat hasn't graced yet. I am aware the part I had in beating this dead horse too. However that was 3 weeks ago. And we're still typing threads on it.

You're not going to get what you want. Now either accept it and move on like the rest of us. Or follow through with your farewell and move on.
I just wanna play some Minecraft fr.

P.S. While I'm not a fan of what he's doing. Harassing him the second he makes an appearance in a General chat is a very shitty thing to do.

 

[Husky]

I have a better question. at this point, Does it even matter?

It's Very Clear Jabba isn't going to respond to this or ever truly be held accountable. Everyone else is already on the point of moving on and trying to keep things afloat ala Highwon days (I've been told he still converses in staff channels a lot so not a full Highwon). Or they have already departed the community.

This has been going on for over a month now and to be frank. It's no longer the Jabba inaction being the main cause of the rift for player Stagnation and departures. It's the constant rehashing over this already month+ old drama.

Every time I think we've pulverized this (thirsty) dead horse. Someone finds a slightly tenderized with a little meat that the broken and bloodied baseball bat hasn't graced yet. I am aware the part I had in beating this dead horse too. However that was 3 weeks ago. And we're still typing threads on it.

You're not going to get what you want. Now either accept it and move on like the rest of us. Or follow through with your farewell and move on.
I just wanna play some Minecraft fr.

P.S. While I'm not a fan of what he's doing. Harassing him the second he makes an appearance in a General chat is a very shitty thing to do.

Great question, Vyx! Does it really matter that the owner of the server - the very pinnacle of what this server is supposed to represent, knowingly and willingly ignored a man getting harassed with his most vulnerable trauma?


I'm asking for accountability in a place where my friends are. Is that so wrong? Is it so wrong to hear from his own lips that he won't take accountability and let others including pierogi move on?


I certainly don't want to. And I certainly won't.
This will continue until justice prevails.

 

[Vyx]

I certainly don't want to. And I certainly won't.
This will continue until justice prevails.

I don't think you understand. Justice is not going to prevail. You are sooner to cause the final straw that gets you COId from here than have Jabba budge.

I've seen this line of thinking multiple times in my life, myself included. It never ends well. Thousands are buried in the city I live in for thinking like that.

In fact it's the mindset one of my closest friends had. And the end result was 16 gunshots, a closed casket funeral, and 4 devastated friends burying someone they thought they'd spend their whole life with.

You are making a fools errand where failure is almost a certainty. You're going to burn yourself up for something that's not going to change.

This is all I leave you with, I won't interfere going forward. But please understand what you're accepting by taking this path.

 

[Husky]

If asking the owner of this community to make good on the standards that are being asked of the dozen+ staff for himself, and that results in a permanent ban for a "Conflict of Interest", then I'm ok with that. Then this community was doomed from the start. Then we're all running fools errands if that's what ends up being the end of it all.

This isn't some petty pursuance of a nitpicked rule or guideline, this is asking the owner to stand up and take accountability for actions he did wrong.

The sooner he does that, the sooner people can move on.

The sad part of it all is that we're not moving on because the conflict was resolved, we just don't want to fight anymore.

I will continue to pursue what I think is right.

 

[Noctorious]

Whether Agennon sends you a kiss sealed letter of apology or not I'm pretty sure he knows he messed up how he handled the situation. Would a direct apology to the community be nice? Yeah, for sure. But is it really worth your mental energy to stress about and bring back up a month later?

I'm not sure what "justice" you want to befall on the Owner. He can't ban himself, and he's pretty much put himself on suspension, which is probably what would have been done to any other long-term staff member who had acted or inacted as he had.

From my POV, he's released some control to the leads. Changes are being made in a more positive direction. I've always put positive change after a negative event as higher importance than just words of apology.

If the situation somehow happened again, I don't think he would act the same. But even better, he won't have to act at all, there will be others with that responsibility. Not making the same mistake because you feel bad about the first time is good, putting things in place where you can't make the same mistake again is better.

 

[Husky]

Whether Agennon sends you a kiss sealed letter of apology or not I'm pretty sure he knows he messed up how he handled the situation. Would a direct apology to the community be nice? Yeah, for sure. But is it really worth your mental energy to stress about and bring back up a month later?

I'm not sure what "justice" you want to befall on the Owner. He can't ban himself, and he's pretty much put himself on suspension, which is probably what would have been done to any other long-term staff member who had acted or inacted as he had.

From my POV, he's released some control to the leads. Changes are being made in a more positive direction. I've always put positive change after a negative event as higher importance than just words of apology.

If the situation somehow happened again, I don't think he would act the same. But even better, he won't have to act at all, there will be others with that responsibility. Not making the same mistake because you feel bad about the first time is good, putting things in place where you can't make the same mistake again is better.

I don't need anything. The community does. There's no progress to be had if the highest authority isn't put in check. That's why governments create checks and balances. Now we're not a government entity, but we establish ourselves similar to one.

No need for any letter of apology sealed with a kiss.


The community needs the owner to do his JOB and act like an adult. He needs to take responsibility like all of the other staff and players are asked to do.

He is no exception. And no, he did not suspend himself, he chose to smoke more weed, do more fishing trips, and ignore the community in midst of a problem.

Where is the accountability and why does this need to be argued so heavily?

I feel sad having to even bring this up.

Is it this insignificant? Does this truly deserve to continue to be ignored while we all just move forward? What about who this hurt?

Will we ignore them?

 

[Siddo]

I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, Husky.
I'm a firm proponent of better late than never, but I don't think there's anything you can say or do to badger the point that hasn't been said or done a hundred times already. And badgering has proven ineffective.
Either Jabba apologizes or he doesn't.
Neither matters anymore. It'd be good. But it doesn't matter anymore. To individuals, maybe. But not for the community.

Speaking to the staff side of things, we've been greenlit to act with greater agency going forward.
Speaking to the community side of things, we've alienated so many of our friends that for a long time, I anticipate us being in a bit of limbo, where we don't really gain nor regain members and will be stagnant. I don't think we've seen the last resignation nor demotion.
But in time, that trend will shift. It won't be today, tomorrow, this week. But little by little, as we continue to build on and iterate on a new foundation for the community, we'll find ourselves in a better place.
Rehashing this argument, at this point, will only do more harm. It reads more as a zealot's righteousness than advocacy for the people that were hurt or wronged in this. People that have largely decided to move on and focus their energy on something that isn't Giant's Lair drama.

Naturally, your opinion and perspective is yours to have. This won't be a productive effort to invest your energy into. You should make your own choice. Choose to be a part of the solution and rebuild, or choose to be part of the solution and avoid perpetuating conflict. There's no undo and there's no repeat, we can't go back to what we used to be. Let's be better.

 

[cooldude43]

I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, Husky.
I'm a firm proponent of better late than never, but I don't think there's anything you can say or do to badger the point that hasn't been said or done a hundred times already. And badgering has proven ineffective.
Either Jabba apologizes or he doesn't.
Neither matters anymore. It'd be good. But it doesn't matter anymore. To individuals, maybe. But not for the community.

Speaking to the staff side of things, we've been greenlit to act with greater agency going forward.
Speaking to the community side of things, we've alienated so many of our friends that for a long time, I anticipate us being in a bit of limbo, where we don't really gain nor regain members and will be stagnant. I don't think we've seen the last resignation nor demotion.
But in time, that trend will shift. It won't be today, tomorrow, this week. But little by little, as we continue to build on and iterate on a new foundation for the community, we'll find ourselves in a better place.
Rehashing this argument, at this point, will only do more harm. It reads more as a zealot's righteousness than advocacy for the people that were hurt or wronged in this. People that have largely decided to move on and focus their energy on something that isn't Giant's Lair drama.

Naturally, your opinion and perspective is yours to have. This won't be a productive effort to invest your energy into. You should make your own choice. Choose to be a part of the solution and rebuild, or choose to be part of the solution and avoid perpetuating conflict. There's no undo and there's no repeat, we can't go back to what we used to be. Let's be better.

This Thread has been a lot of back and forth and “gotcha” moments. This isn’t healthy or doing good for the community. Siddo, hearing that Jabba has been giving higher ups and admins more freedom is a great thing to hear because I know that right now, a lot of the leads have a different idea on how this community should be run.
Another thing I’ve mentioned in the Shoutbox is the amount of pessimistic comments and criticism which in turn makes more people think this way, it’s like a virus. It cannot keep happening. Vyx, I completely agree that every time it feels like it’s slowing down, someone brings up someone else and makes it worse. Thats exactly what I was gonna say.
A lot of shit has happened in the past few weeks, and a lot of it has been solved.
I’m not sure what will help this community in the next few days but I think one part of the root of the problem it the ttt pops. The past few days have had a 10 person pop (much better then average 🫩) but having a pop like we did back in Feb could, in my opinion, do us some good.
Idk, I kinda went off on random stuff but I hope you understand my main point.

-cooldude